we talk a lot about low code tools well now there's something for proc coders to get excited about today's guest give us more info on what that is welcome to breakpoint the service now developer [Music] podcast hello service now admins Builders developers and of course all of the Curious individuals that I always say with the utmost love and respect welcome to or welcome back to breakpoint the service now developer podcast where we bring you the latest tools tips and tradecraft to accelerate your career my name is CH tamasi I am a senior developer Advocate and I am joined today by the one the only the incomparable Posh programmer service now developer Advocate Lauren McManaman how are you today Lauren I am doing great and technically we have secret co-hosts too bad there do a video I have a little white dog on my lap too so B is actually joining us for today's episode two in this episode we are joined by not one but two two subject matter experts that have a wonderful new topic that I am bursting at the seams to talk about Patrick Wilson and Jay Couture how are you gentlemen doing great excited to be here all right yep doing well thanks for asking awesome awesome let's get on with your titles and intros and everything we'll start with you Patrick tell us a little bit about yourself yeah hey my name is Patrick Wilson I'm a engineering director here at service now uh what to say been with service now for about 10 years now so an old head I've been here for a while what how have we not cross paths or have we I think we did we we definitely have you look familiar but it's an audio podcast trust me people and just to confirm this is is is this or is or not this the Patrick Wilson and all the conjuring movies um it is it is oh he's done a career you know once this whole like internet fad thing finally wears out I plan to focus full-time on acting ah makes sense and what did you do before you came to service now I was a student so I started at service now when I was a student at um UC San Diego which is right down the street from where I'm working now um that summer it was like the last summer of college and I started an internship working for a company I had never heard of called service now this was in 2014 um and um but uh yeah I would ride my bike back and forth from school to the office um and uh definitely spent a lot more time working at service now than I was working on my studies there for the last couple of quarters but um that's how I got started at service now as as an intern and I've been here mostly ever since excellent thank you for staying on and Jay introduce yourself if you will hey folks I'm Jay coutour I'm a senior staff product manager on the service now platform team and I've been with the company a little over six months now both polar ends of the career Spectrum here at service now well then you must have done something prior to six months ago what was that indeed I was a product manager at Amazon web services working on an AWS service called service catalog which which is essentially um intended for large organizations to govern the way in which their developers provision infrastructure is code in the cloud I got to ship some cool developer first experiences like u a CLI for dynamically generating code constructs of the declarative infrastructures code Assets in a customer environment so that they could use imperative programming with languages like typescript and python to model complex application INF structure with just a few lines of code that sounds like it's going to play in well with our topic in just a minute but we've got a couple more questions for you first Lauren what do you want to know well I guess my first question considering these are kind of unique positions that we haven't really interviewed much before what does a typical day in the life look like at service now for the two of you oh gosh I'll go first uh day in my life looks really different now than it did even a few months ago so I'm new to the management world um and I've been an engineer for almost my entire career and you know six months ago my answer would have been I come to work and I start coding and then I stop coding and I go home and that was my day um now my day you know really eight hours a day at least is just talking to people so meetings uh hallway conversations uh workshops you know um meeting with my team other people's team teams my managers um about you know what are we working on right now what are we working on next how are things going are things going badly if they are how do we fix them um you know what do we want to do next release what about the release after that it's just wall to--all um conversations with people mostly so that's kind of what my day looks like now it's a different kind of success yeah very different and Jay how about your day I have to say it's hard to characterize a typical day for a product manager um similar to Patrick it's a lot of meeting but some days are heavy with lots of customer meetings to get their feedback on what we're building for them and get a better understanding of how we can help them derive more value out of the platform faster and I really love spending time with our customers other days it's trying to find some non- meeting time so that I can get heads down and hammer out a narrative to help us drive towards a strategic decision or maybe a product requirements stock to help abstract some of the ambiguity away from my Engineers um so that they can solve some of the really tricky technical hurdles and get us to getting products in the hands of customers faster um other days it's working hand inand with design to get what's in my head down on paper and a way that's tractable and tangible sometimes it's testing defects and customer feedback and really forming an opinion on what we should modify or fix to deliver that most delightful customer experience and truth be told most days it's just a mix of all of those things and whichever race car comes into my pit Lane and needs to be refueled or these tires are a bumper that's what I'm attending to at the time so it's really kind of Ruthless prioritization very cool and I love that metaphor yeah that's a I do too I might borrow that one that's good and one of our favorite questions to ask our guests as well is is there a story from your career um at any point in time that you did something that you thought you might get fired for obviously you don't have to be actually fired for it and if it's HR related you can leave it off the table yeah but do y'all have any any stories like that I've got I've got a pretty good one at least it really felt to me like I was going to get fired at the time so that's what we're looking for yeah yeah so several years ago uh I forget what year it was exactly like maybe 2017 or so probably I was at service now and at that time I was working on a a small team of people building a product that we shipped sometime ago now called service portal um and and uh it was a small team it was uh led by guy named Fred lety who I think the listeners of this podcast probably know this is getting better by the minute and uh we were preparing for uh knowledge and service portal at that time it was it was Landing pretty hot I think I think the release was like maybe Istanbul or something and um we were spending a lot of time at knowledge in Las Vegas uh before the big keynote that Fred did at that time every year huddled up in a little conference room at like you know 7 o'clock in the morning desperately trying to get the demo that he was about to do to work um because you know we like to I guess fly pretty close to the Sun in those days and uh and at that time we did all live demos so it was it was a live demo that we were doing real software and um we were working right up to the buzzer trying to get this thing to work trying to get this particular demo path to work and uh it was all great you know I left the room and I go out to the audience for knowledge to like sit with everybody else and watch the keynote Fred comes on he does he walks through the demo everything's going great and then he gets to the very last stage and he decides to throw a little curveball in and uh I think at that time it was like uh here's a custom service portal widget that communicates with this web we API and we're going to see like weather data popping up or something along those lines and he gets to that part of the demo and it doesn't work you know like the the the weather data is not fetched um it kind of Falls flat Fred was really good at demos he was really good at presenting so I don't even know that people noticed that the demo didn't work like he skated past it really cleanly but all of us like the whole team in the audience was just sitting there like oh my God like which one of us broke this and I it was me because we made a lot of like late changes to the whole demo like um you know we were working up to the buzzer so you know uh The Kino ends we go back to this conference room that we were all huddled up in we're just waiting for Fred to come in he walks in we're all just like waiting like you know who was it who broke it and then he comes out and he says yeah I made a last minute change to that widget right before we oh my God right before I went on stage I thought I had it sorry everybody and all of us were just like thank God we're not losing our jobs today because you know Fred's allowed to make a mistake spoiler alert you won't lose your job over something like that even if it was you Patrick and ever since that day we've used demo ezel that might be why I wonder if was the reason Jay you got a good story for us I do yeah go for it so I'll leave out some of the specifics but once upon a time I was working at a company that had gone through a massive data breach and all of the negative press surrounding that a few years before I joined and I shipped a platform for providing customers data scientists with sandbox virtual environments with gpus for the purpose of training and tuning machine learning algorithms before the Advent of generative Ai and all the fun stuff that we're doing today so we loaded these environments with deidentified data and the whole system was super secure one day the data team provided a refresh of new data and neglected to De Identify some of the pseudo identifier Fields oh dear of course some of that data was loaded into a customer environment when they requested a refresh and I got a question from that customer asking me about some of those fields and as soon as I did I immediately felt that sense of dread that manifests as a pit in your stomach you know what I mean and I knew the only thing that I could do at that point was report what happened to data governance and I knew for sure I was going to lose my job immediately I foresaw headlines about this company and their next massive data breach and losing my job and being blacklisted from the job market because it happened under my watch even though like I personally didn't take any of these actions that resulted in the data being transferred it was just simply the result of a underbaked validation process so things turned out well I didn't lose my job because I did the right thing I reported it immediately um it didn't end up being that big of a deal due to the legal specifics and contractual l obligations and the nature of the data the use case and all of that but at the end of the day I did have to put a lot of extra governance on top of that ingestion process on my side of the house and man that was not a fun day but um I'd say really what I learned was like even for situations where there's boring validation work that should happen on somebody else's shoulders it probably makes sense in these very sensitive scenarios to also do that boring validation work on by side of the house just to triple check and be sure and uh really to always do the right thing because things will work out better than trying to cover it up and hide it absolutely yeah that if anything that just shows like oh like honesty really is the best policy you know even if it's a boo you made or or someone on your teammate like you said it wasn't even you it was just that you were the guy that found it great story with a great lesson thank you yeah now to the main topic we heard something about uh a feature in our Tech now program called the service now SDK who gets to fill us in on what it is and some of that functionality that pleasure would be mine so the service now SDK or software development kit in its currently available form is a command line utility that enables customers to add JavaScript modules via the standard import export syntax as well as thirdparty and even first-party libraries from node package manager or npm to their service now scoped applications and then upload those modified applications to an instance of the now platform the SDK supports the use of the most popular local integrated development environment Visual Studio code for creating and modifying these scoped applications with those custom modules and third party libraries so the workflow here is that customers can use the SDK to authenticate to their instance then create or download a scoped application locally then add custom JavaScript modules and thirdparty libraries to that application and then finally build and deploy that application back to their instance and the SDK is available today at npm at service now SDK oh I love the plug too and we'll have Link in the show notes of course when you say third party libraries give us an example of some of the more popular ones that that you're thinking about people would add in you want to take that one Patrick sure yeah I mean a couple come to mind immediately right like if I'm a if I'm a JavaScript developer and I'm working in kind of like the wider ecosystem there's in particular a lot of like utility libraries that I reach for immediately as a developer to help kind of augment this sort of JavaScript runtime that we're all working with right um two that come to mind are low Dash which is a popular uh uh open source mpm package that sort of it's almost like the missing API of the missing native API of JavaScript right it's the thing that lets you easily do collection traversal string manipulation uh you know some basic like kind of data structure traversal um etc etc it's it's it's just this Library that's jam-packed with all of these like really helpful little utility methods and utility functions that um you know until basically the the service now SDK I haven't really been able to use in a in a service now context service now offers some of utility methods of its own of course but it doesn't offer low Dash in kind of the really expansive set of methods that that has available uh another great example is um datetime libraries a popular one is um a library called momentjs that's been around for a long time uh that lets you do um datetime related things in your code right which is famously probably one of the hardest things to do in software people have built really helpful libraries for um for doing datetime manipulation like you know how far apart are these two dates even like something simple like that to much more complicated things uh those are just a couple like really useful and extremely popular third-party packages that are out there in the ecosystem that now you're able to bring into your service now scope apps as well I remember Dave Slusher and Josh were working with moment for a while and the way that they brought it in and used it was really convoluted so obviously it sounds like this simplifies it greatly for sure and it lets you bring in for example whatever version of it that you want to so this isn't some version of these packages that you know service now platform team has brought in and said here you go you can use low Dash vers 14.2.1 and also it's going to be our own little kind of skin of low Dash so it's going to not have some things and it's Etc no this is just a thirdparty package you you say this is my dependency it pulls it in exactly as it exists in the npm global uh package registry and you can use it um you know it it kind of makes uh it's a step toward making service now app development feel a little bit more like app development on any other platform you've talked about utilitarian libraries would that also apply to uh more uid driven things like service portal libraries if I wanted to bring in some new graph drawing library or uh drag and drop or something of that nature so the the focus for for this release and in Washington is around bringing this capability that we haven't had before to the uh server side execution environment of JavaScript so our um rhino environment right like I can I can write JavaScript and it'll run on on service now infrastructure and it's in that area that we really never had the ability to pull in third party P thirdy packages um we've had some version of this already in the past for things like service portal widgets where there was a kind of roundabout but functional way of bringing in some of those packages as well um but now what we're seeing is bringing some of that expressive capability to um the uh to the server side as well and um it's certainly on our road map to expand this kind of thread of like you know uh modern development practices that are driven by M packages and things like that and bringing that to the client side as well and having kind of a full stack um Solution that's something that's we talk about all the time is for sure on our road map as the service now platform has grown and gotten more and more popular one interesting thing that we've noticed is that people have learned JavaScript through the context of maybe service now exclusively right like that's been their conduit it to learning job script so specifically for those type of people what does building in this SDK like what does this now offer them functionality wise like how does this kind of change their tool set so I'll say that the SDK in its current form is really for uh the more Pro code developer who wants to take advantage of kind of the open source JavaScript ecosystem um and kind of over the years many folks have contributed open source code for leveraging common functionality that's useful across common contexts so so instead of having to rewrite that functionality um using thirdparty libraries really accelerates development efforts for folks who are used to using um kind of that standard contextualized JavaScript ecosystem for doing their application development and really anybody that's done um a lot of JavaScript development like Patrick uh has likely used a dozen or more thirdparty libraries for borrowing functionality that just works so that they can focus on the more unique aspects of what they're they're developing which isn't to say that the folks who have learned some JavaScript on platform can't use this they certainly Ken is just going to be a little bit different in terms of the experience of doing some local IDE development the workflow is is quite simple we have very good documentation on how to use the SDK and it might be a really cool learning opportunity as well to figure out some of the common functions or code blocks that I'm writing perhaps in a script include that there might be an existing npm library that I can import into my application and then deploy that to my instance and have access to it so uh we certainly think that there's value for kind of both types of developers the more serviced out native developer as well as the uh more classic JavaScript developer and the point that I want to make here as well is that the reason that we built this is in service of bringing the service Now application development experience more towards the standard JavaScript development expected experience of building applications while also aligning the Now platform's functionality with the latest ecmascript standards so the other piece I'll add is that the SDK and its current form is really a foundation for what we're currently working on to bring application development at service now more in line with that common modern development experience of developing node.js applications I'll say that it's the first step towards this main quest and we're really excited to bring modular JavaScript and thirdparty Library support into the hands of customers today who can derive value from it but we'll also be building on this framework more and more based on what we've been hearing from customers is fantastic so kind to summarize that this introduction of the service now SDK is to help bring our platform better in line with the expectations that professional JavaScript developers already have and maybe give them another area that they can diversify like their resume or other types of use the proc coding talents they already have to leave a bigger punch on the service now platform absolutely very nice I have a friend that I've known since I was 16 17 years old uh so well over 40 years and we have a monthly call and I was very excited this past Saturday to tell him about this because he's what you would call a traditional developer uh and I said Scott I can finally I've been trying to get him to develop in service now for 15 years or more and he's just you know this is the way I do it this is he's a great guy he's very he says I don't have opinions I have strongly held convictions so I think we we finally broke through that wall with Scott my friend that's exactly the type of person I think that we're that we're trying to reach is is you know the developers that are out there that you know maybe they've heard of this service now like uh maybe they've heard of service now maybe they've heard of the now platform uh but the experience of developing on the platform didn't really closely mimic maybe the environments that they're used to and reaching out to those people and saying like there's kind of a home for you here too right you can you can develop and Target the the service now platform as well in the apps that you're building that's absolutely who we're trying to Target give us a technical overview of how this all works we're in vs code we've got an instance what what does this look like yeah great question so um the service now SDK is it's a CLI tool right so it's a tool that we've built that's invocable um that's installable on your local development machine and that you can uh run from your machine through like a command line interface uh just by typing typing now- SDK and at its core what the service now SDK does is it's really a build process right what it does is it takes the code that you're writing and it packages it up and it builds it into something that can be installable on a service now instance so there are some utilities that are part of that CLI to enable you to do that so it allows you to do things like log in and authenticate with whatever instance you're using to do your development whatever instance of the platform you're using to do your development um it also includes some functionality for I want to run a build of this Co this source code that I have package it up and then send it off to that instance to be installed so that I can see my app running on an instance uh it also includes some functionality for saying hey you know I've done some work on the instance now maybe I've created some metadata I've made a business rule or I've created a a system property whatever it is uh that's part of my scoped app that I'm making and I want to pull those changes back into my source code that I'm managing locally uh so that maybe I can check it into git or uh you know like maybe I have a GitHub repository or a bit bucket repository or something that I want to manage my code in and now I can do that um but at its core that's what that's what the CLI does is it's a build process what we've observed is that you know if you look at what a service now app is really under the hood it's a bunch of XML if you're thinking about it from like a source code perspective right a service now app is a bunch of XML that represents updates against a service now uh database um lots of stuff goes into the there your business rules your script includes your so on and so on um it works on the instance it works great as a deployment artifact right like it works really well to install an application on your instance it doesn't work as well as source code as the thing that you manipulate as a developer you know as a developer I want to just write Plano JavaScript files or Plano typescript files I don't really care about this whole XML thing that's happening under the hood necessarily right like that's just kind of a from my point of view as a developer that's sort of a that should be kind of an implementation detail of like how you get an app onto the instance not the thing that I have to care about when I'm authoring code and that's really what the nsdk does is it it allows that XML instead of being your source code and being the source of Truth for your app now it's it's just a build artifact it's something that we generate as part of a build process so that we can install your app on a on an instance it's almost like a binary file or or aass file in the Java world where it's like the result of some build that's happened and the thing I have to care about is my source code and I can organize it however I want I can structure that however I want they're plain old JavaScript files that I can very easily manipulate in really any editor not just VSS code but you know vs code is the most popular editor in the world for editing JavaScript applications um and that's how it works that's the ndk it lets you structure your projects uh mostly the way that you want and it includes a bunch of utilities for running builds and then getting that code onto an instance cool amazing run through you may it seem so easy so obviously if you're trying to pick up this new tool set and use it really well are there any sorts of recommendations that you would give for people that have just upgraded to Washington and want to learn how to use this the best their abilities I I mean I think the you know the best place of course to to reference is our excellent documentation site where go in depth on you know here's how you download and install the now SDK which is the first step uh it's an easyest step because you can download and install it straight from npm which if you're a JavaScript developer you've done this before it's just a it's a global install of a package from npm and Bam now you've got this shiny new command that you can run in your command line on on your machine um from there you you kind of keep clicking through the documentation and it'll guide you through you know the place that I would start try scaffolding like a sample app we have some utilities inside of the SDK already for hey can you generate me a quick table in a business role uh just to be kind of part of this sort of initial app that I'm building what'll what that'll show you is it'll show you one one it'll get you kind of familiar with the flow the development flow of using the SDK this flow of I'm doing local development I'm doing a build and deploy into my instance and then if I've made changes on the instance I run a now SDK Fetch and pull those changes back into my local code it'll kind of walk you through what that what that what that uh kind of gameplay Loop feels like right that kind of experience of using it and it'll walk you through how the modules that you define in the third party packages that you import uh integrate with the uh scripted rest apis or business rules or script includes or wherever it is you're already writing uh server script on the service now platform it'll show you really clearly like how do I get my modules that I'm writing into that uh into those entities right um the spoiler of that is it's really easy we've built a new uh um API called require which for anyone that's a JavaScript developer it's basically the commonjs uh method of importing modules into your code uh you have that available to you now everywhere that you write server script on the service now platform you can write a require statement and you pass in the code that you want to import and that's code that's defined as a module inside of your inside of your now SDK project um and then you're off to the races you can you can leverage these modules wherever you want now this might be speaking from my own point of ignorance obviously I've been kind of developing mostly from the low and no code perspective as being part of like the Creator workflows team so it's been a long time since I've built something in any external IDE how does the syncing work between V s code and service now because traditionally like you're only really building on platform in the past so how will that change now with this external tool the now STK has two functions for pushing changes into an instance and pulling changes from an instance those two commands are called deploy and fetch so a deploy does what it says on the tin you've made some changes locally in vs code on your own machine and you'd like to see the result of those changes in an instance that you could click around and see the you know the logic that you're running or see the messages that you're that you're printing out to a uh to to a form page or something like that whatever it is and you'd like to see that running the way that you get your code off of your machine and onto that instance is through a deploy so you've you've you've run your build you type deploy it will ask you to log into or to authenticate to some Target in if it hasn't already and based on that instance that you've configured it and that you've told it to log into it will package up those changes for you and send them over the wire and install it as an application install on your uh instance where you can go and see the changes and where you can go and play around with things so that's how you can get your changes from your machine to an instance and then there's the other way around in the now SDK locally you're only really editing JavaScript files right but there's more than just JavaScript that's part of a service Now application there's your business rules there's your script addrress apis there's your service portal widgets whatever it is and all those things are editable on the instance so now you know you might want to make some modifications to stuff on the instance and say all right I want to pull that back to my local machine so that I can make a commit and push it into some git repository somewhere and the command that we have for that is called Fetch so you type now SDK fetch in your um in your command line and that'll take all the changes that you've made on the instance and pull them back uh as an update to this uh to the files that are sitting on your file system on your machine uh so that's kind of what like that back and forth flow looks like are we talking all command line from the little terminal window or is there a menu option similar to git where you could either type or there's some menus that you can use right now it's entirely through the CLI so it's a little command that you type into your into your terminal or into your command line and that's how you interface with the now SDK today we talked about these third party libraries but uh feels like there might be some security concerns about just letting any old library onto the platform what are we talking about as far as security around these yeah that's a great point so the place that we think about security and where we enforce it is in the runtime itself so um as part of the modification to the scripting engine under the hood of the service now platform where we actually execute JavaScript uh We've made modifications such that if you've imported a third-party package and you're running a third-party package in your instance it doesn't have access to all of the same apis and capabilities that first party code that you're writing for your instance has access to if you think about the types of things that can go wrong in a in an app or in a scoped app that you're writing mostly it falls into the category of of like data exfiltration right like we don't want some hacker to make a modification to some thirdparty Library that's not in anybody's control that's just sitting on mpm that says hey if this runs on a in a service now instance uh go ahead and clear query the uh um the HR table and you know pull out all the payroll information and send it to you know hackers.com or something right like we don't want people to be able to do that so the way that we've solved this problem is by reducing the access or restricting the access to service now apis that are available from a third party context so what that means concretely is you can't do things like access Glide record the Glide record API from a thirdparty library if if anything tries to it it just sh gets shut down it's it's it's not able to access those apis and it's through controlling the runtime environment and what's available to these scripts that we're able to mitigate security concerns from the platform side other than security concerns are there any caveats to the third parties thirdparty libraries that we support or do we just kind of support anything yeah that's a good question so in the broader kind of JavaScript ecosystem usually npm packages are built against the node.js runtime right so usually authors of these packages are expecting that this JavaScript the JavaScript that they're authoring is going to get executed in the context of node which is a very popular JavaScript runtime it's also not the JavaScript runtime that we use on the server side we use a different JavaScript runtime called Rhino it supports different apis um so anything as as a first pass anything that is dependent on apis from node.js will not work in the service now context that's things like file system apis HTTP apis uh things that use these native node.js apis and modules those things won't work in a service now context today um another major example is uh currently in the serverid scripting environment in service now we don't support asynchronously executed JavaScript so that's things like promises async a weight uh those aren't currently capabilities that we have in the uh JavaScript runtime that we run over the course of the last few releases we have been steadily closing that Gap I'm excited to say and we've been bringing more and more of the latest ecmascript defined capabilities and features of JavaScript uh broadly into the service now platform so that people can use those capabilities a really big one that we're bringing in Washington is the ability to have Import and Export statements which was something that has been historically missing from the service now platform but is now available and it's on our road map to continue to uh shrink that Gap and bring the service now scripting environment more and more in line with the uh popular JavaScript run times um in the rest of the industry so that's something that we're continuously working on well that's a fantastic segue into the question that we always like to berate our product Specialists with when they join us on this podcast is there any hints that you can provide us for where the trajectory of this project is going what could we you know hope to expect from a Zan to do for maybe ukah Safe Harbor Safe Harbor indeed I can share a little bit I won't go into Super specific detail uh however we are working on enabling customers to model their application metadata as source code in either a local IDE or directly on their instance with a brand new developer first experience that treats distributed Version Control namely git as a first class citizen for authoring and modifying service now applications which of course carries all the benefits of using get like significantly increased productivity via distributed team collaboration and then of course we'll have all of the features you'd expect of an IDE like intellisense and syntax checking in a way that is specific to the service Now application development context so with all of that said you can expect to hear way more from us in the future by way of developer first pro code experiences so if I heard that right it's similar to what we did with graphical and the graphql Explorer it's not a thirdparty tool that you install it's going to be on the platform is that correct we're going to have like a vs codish environment on the platform indeed that's the plan okay it also sounds like this enables a whole bunch of other capabilities down the road just by having this method of building source code uh I'm thinking developer Independence and scalability so everybody on the instance doesn't have to be working on the same branch of the same app we we could be doing something like that in the future that's a problem that we've heard from customers at nauseum and it is certainly something that we are looking and planning to address because we believe and we've heard from customers that enabling parallel development is going to exponentially increase the value that they can derive from the now platform by helping them deliver applications faster for their end users so certainly a problem that we are looking to tackle in a tractable and tangible way one of the other things I've heard for enabling might be local development rather than always being tied to your online instance would it be possible to do some quote unquote offline development that's also in the plan will say that the release of the SDK that we're talking about today is a foundational release we are looking to expand on those capabilities especially as they relate to this application source code or application metadata as source code that we're talking about so we're looking to provide developers with the autonomy to choose their preferred development framework and or method of choice be it on instance development or local development in also enabling collaboration between developers irrespective of the development tooling that they choose be it lower no code tooling or some of this more professional developer tooling that we're looking to provide okay I have to forgive me while I wipe off the microphone I'm salivating all over I'm drooling for these new features that are coming we've got a lot of stuff coming down the road but immediately in 202 for notably the first half of it anyway uh is there anything that we're going to Showcase around this SDK at Creator con for our technical friends out there indeed we will have a breakout session at Creator con it will be titled the future of source code scripting and development Frameworks on the now platform we are also likely going to have an ask ask the experts session in which we will go into a little bit more detail on some of this upcoming road map that we've discussed here today uh for the purpose of getting some feedback directly from developers um who want to ensure that we're accounting for their needs as we're developing some of these products similarly we may also be at the future lab uh demoing this IDE that we've been talking about for on instance development uh again for the purpose of getting customer feedback and showing where we are in terms of our our development cycle a fair warning our developers are not shy about giving feedback I don't know many are as a product manager I I always say that feedback is a gift so even if it is extremely positive or uh extremely critical feedback I really treat feedback as a gift I find that it's absolutely crucial to have that tight feedback loop with our our developers to ensure that we're delivering them the features and functionality that are going to make their lives easier than they are today and that is a great place to not only receive it but for the listener that is a great place to give it so once again we invite you and encourage you to get to knowledge 24 in May of 2024 sorry if you're listening to this after the event but uh go next year that brings us to the end so first thank you Jay thank you Patrick for joining us today but before you leave we got to leave these people with a way to get in touch with you so if they do have ideas and they may have missed knowledge but they've got some feedback for you how can they reach you yeah snail mail to your address chuck oh yeah that would be bill. mcdermit servicenow.com um I'm I'm reachable on LinkedIn it's linkedin.com j- no spaces or via email jonathan. cutor servicenow.com no h and Jonathan and we will be putting that in the show notes as well and Patrick yeah please reach out I would love to hear from anyone's experiences using thek or even just ideas for where we should go next you can reach me uh via email at patrick. Wilson servicenow.com uh you can also find me on LinkedIn uh I'm not going to my LinkedIn URL is long and annoying so I'll put it in the show notes okay yeah uh you'll find it in the show notes but Patrick Wilson on LinkedIn uh please reach out please add me uh would love to hear uh any and all thoughts excellent thank you very much and thank you wonderful listener for joining us today don't forget there are more service now podcasts I listen to them all they're wonderful some are long some are short some are technical some are more for managerial you can you can find all of them on our community at servicenow.com Community under the events menu of all places subscribe to this or any of them for absolutely free so that they are automatically delivered to you you can find those wherever you find popular podcasts they're easy to find breakpoint is brought to you by service now the executive producers would be me and Lauren and to find out more about the service now developer program we invite you to head over to developer. servicenow.com again thank you so much Patrick and Jay for joining us today thanks for having us thanks for having us want to come back please let us know what you think about this podcast you can leave feedback or ask questions in the service now Community for more great information on service now development check out the service now developer portal at developer. servicenow.com thanks for listening it works better when you record it you know yeah it's kind of hard to do a podcast when you don't hit the record button and I am joined by the one the only the incompetent incompetent incomparable that's it try that again you want to take that Jay or do you want me to take that I'll take it Jay's been sitting there quietly patiently waiting sure let's do it the answer for Creator con is yes smart guy heck yeah can't wait say Harbor Safe Harbor Safe Harbor we'll insert the Safe Harbor sound there hey if you like the show my name is Chuck tamasi if you don't my name is Fred ly it's all service now nerds be like this is cool this is cool this is cool I like cars oh interesting interesting