good morning everybody and welcome to the Digital Services Forum bi-weekly meeting today we're going to talk about some of this stuff will be review that I go through today but we want to use it to kick off a series so I'm going to bring a couple pieces together that we've been talking about over the last six months or nine months or so and use this as the start of a of a three-part series that we've been talking around digital products because it sounds like that's where a lot of our questions are coming from right now all around how do we get to digital products or what are the digital products what do we do with them so I'm going to kind of recap some of the things and some of these slides you might have seen already but um definitely stop me or drop questions in along the way if you have if you have any questions one of the big things that we when we switch to digital products there's much more of a financial sense to what we're doing and a lot of times that financials those financials are left to the executives and people that are working on the actual products and doing the releases don't actually see those financials so that's one of the big shifts is what are we spending and what what's the value we're getting for that so I'm G to use an example today just because it's public information I'm going to use an example from a state and local government but it's very similar in a lot of organizations as well I talked to been people in manufacturing people in financials Pharmaceuticals and and they're set up in a very similar way to the way State local government set up from a funding perspective so before we start if you are new to this group I'm going to explain what it is at the end we're not going to do all the intros in the beginning about what the group does but if you could just drop your name in and let everybody know that you're new and um I'll show you more at the end on how you can get involved how you can get to our shared instance and then some of resources on the community but we do like everybody to introduce themselves if you're here for the first time right so if we look at State local government and this could be the same for any industry right but I just want to give you a financial perspective from from from my side I'm not the financial guy we'll have some of them on next week but I want to really talk about how we look at these when we're doing a product driven organization so if you start with all state local government technology Hardware software Services Network and Communications about $134 billion get spent every year and that's that's going up you know pretty regularly but that's the 2023 spend now what happens and just like in any organization right if we're in manufacturing if we're in different places there'll be a split of that that goes to different places so because of the way governments split up they'll they'll give part of it to State part of it to cities and then counties and then there's other areas where that money goes too to like Special Districts and and things like that so everybody is a constituents I thought this example would be a good one now if you if you take that technology money right that that gets spent it's about it equals about $400 a citizen in the US $400 a year per citizen goes to support state local government technology spending if you look at shared service organizations I know the majority of us that are on this call are probably in these shared services organizations but that shared service organization gets a chunk of that money right so there's it's kind of Whitt down here so it's roughly about a third about a third of the overall technology budget ends up in that shared service organization and then if you look at some actuals right if I go out and I look at actuals and I pulled a state a city and a county and um these are basically the budgets that they're getting in those state city and so it's pretty proportional to the population U is the money that they'll get for shared services so if you look at your area uh your company there'll probably be some division like this and some financials that you can get to or a lot of times that the executives have gotten to and they understand this I've talked to a couple of cios that have Consultants come in just to tell them what they're spending on shared services and then how it's split up and so if we look at these in a portfolio perspective um I'm going to take that money that's across all three of these areas and kind of carve it up right now so that we can look at how it would be formed if we were to structure around digital products so we talked about the technology that you're spending money on Hardware software IT services so this is a an area and I'll give you at the end where I got this information if everybody's interested in the data I could certainly provide links to that and I'll have that at the end of this deck when I provide it to you but if you look about two-thirds of that $581 million goes to technology and this is get we're we're only talking about shared service money now we're not talking about the money for customer services or Employee Services just the shared service area and then the rest of that $581 million goes to the talent so basically we're Hing people to get value from this stuff that we're buying right because this stuff is worthless if you don't have the technologist to squeeze the value out of it and so that's really what they're there for now if you look at what they're trying to do and again we're just focused on that shared service chunk right now not the whole it budget so what we're there to do is build the shared and foundational services like a lot of you are working on itsm that's typically going to be a a foundational service so that we could go ahead and manage the health of all of the applications or all the services we're offering and then there's this sometimes this is split out and there's some debate on whether we split this out or it's all combined into one but it's the factory what is the what is the process someone goes through to create a new service or to improve on an existing service so if you look at the shared services they spend all their money on these two things things right that's what they're doing they're trying to build a better machine a more well-oiled machine to support the the services and digital products that we deliver so the those two areas are really Mission support for what we're really trying to do is provide services to our customers and provide services to our employees so that we can support our employees but right now we're going to really focus on this chunk and then developing digital products here so that we can um set some context for going forward is there any questions so far I see some people introduce them okay there's any questions if you can just drop them in there now we have a lot of organizations that that are on this call that have already switched to digital products so we will have them on in the next few weeks and I'll talk about that a little bit more later right now if we if we start looking now we say okay we're supporting these portfolios for for the factory and the Sheridan foundational uh if we look and go into that a little deeper we want to look at how do we improve this right and um the way that industry has improved it if you if you look at the a sec I um I threw a question in the chat but I'm guessing that with uh um everyone doing intros they'll get missed can you define a digital product sure a digital product in the context that we're talking about and that's a great question I I'm meant to put a slide up here for that because um there's a lot of confusion there because it's defined differently all over the place at service now we use more of the it for it definition so it could be a service grouped together with an application it could be it could be two Serv and an application it could be a mixture of other digital products that are together like if you consider um CSM a digital product that you're buying from service now you can combine that to make it a digital product for your organization so the digital product in this context and it could be Hardware as well so in the csdm we Define all the different things that are product models and those are the three things so it could be it could be that application which is more of a sof software model underneath cstm could be a piece of Hardware um or it could be a grouping of those things like if we offer if we have a laptop service if we and we say there's a gold silver and bronze laptop service the product is is a wrapper around all those services and then all the applications it takes to deliver those services so when we say digital product that means that there's some codebase there's some software somewhere or some configuration that need that is needed to support that that digital product right so if you're selling a brick online it's not a digital product because the brick itself doesn't have software to it right but the e-commerce site has software to it so it's a digital product right so it could be any wrapper around those things that you make sense out of to sell um back either internally in the organization as a as a foundational product um or as a customer employee product so I'll give you an example on the next slide and if it still doesn't make sense we'll stop again and kind of go over it okay so that's what a digital product is it's more like switching the big thing we're talking about here is switching the way that we do things around that product and really switching to the way that a lot of industry has moved so how do we shift the that Central that shared service organization how do we change them from being an organization that comes in and does projects and supports operations right and how do we change it to a digital product portfolio management organization uh sort of like all the big companies have done like if we I think Boeing is on this call uh they did this shift a while ago and there's some papers on that there's a lot of other organizations that we work with on the open group Ford Motor Company I talked to MK and a lot of them has switched to this digital product portfolio management because all these things they're looking to do is hard they're hard to do in this world right so if you want to improve the life cycle management you take all your technology and you wrap it into these digital product blocks and then you're able to say now there's somebody there's a team in charge of that digital product so that you get the improved life cycle management you get a lot more dependencies like what do we need to deliver that digital product what is the total Financial picture for us to deliver that and then what are the what's the value we're getting out of it which are the services and so there's a lot of accountability that comes with this too because you're making sure that all the technology you have is being consumed in these digital products and then when you go for Investments I used to be a product manager and every quarter I would have to meet with all the executives and I would say look this is this is what we we sold of our product last quarter because it was a customer facing product and this is what we can make if you give me this much investment to build these new features and so there's a there's a practice around the digital products where they're they're circular it's continual investment and what you're trying to do is really grow the base of the people that are using that digital product and that's opposed to saying hey we're going to do a project and we're going to install that thing and then later on if we need to iterate on it we have to spin up another project right so it's more about that ongoing management of these series of products that you're keeping in that shared portfolio or the foundational portfolio as opposed to saying that we're going to install something and then move on to the next project and the next project in the next project right so there's there's ongoing ownership of the entire thing right instead of just somebody owns the service somebody owns the application and it's all kind of spread out there's there's kind of a top down ownership of those products that you're building if you look at Uber sorry would it be fair just this is Jeff alers from Excel would it be fair to say that typically these products are sort of focused on providing some set of functional or business capabilities to the Enterprise They sort of own that whole end to end business of I I I I provide you know what customer relationship Services I'm I'm making that up but any any or if it's some sort of backend service but it's that's what these products are organized around is it's all the stuff that goes into enabling the the business to do X and to find that X functionally is opposed to buy buy a set of Technologies or other toys exactly yep yep and you could package that any way you want to right because you're the product manager inside your organization and a lot of people think these are vendor products that you'll bring in and then you know you're just a manager for that vendor product and that's not the case we'll talk about how you can put these together together and what it means to do real project portfolio Management in your organization but yeah you're spot on there it's the it could be infrastructure stuff so the our network connectivity products you know we have a product around providing network connectivity to everybody who needs it within our Enterprise that could be a digital you could find find a digital product around that what does it all take to do the services the to technology the people the processes all wrapped together you manage it as a unit as opposed to like you said earlier silos doing each of those different things in dependently you got it yeah yeah you're creating like little mini businesses right that are just tested with doing that one I love to give is an example I won't use it today but is um if you say that somebody's in charge of like an asset and configuration management product and you go around and your job is to go to Every organization and be able to manage their assets for them so that we don't have 55 different ways of managing assets within an organization right so you you have that that Asset Management product now underneath it you may have five or six different vendors that are helping you to manage those assets but you're wrapping it all in this in the service right and and you're managing the product which is the combination of this the technology you need to do it and the infrastructure you need to do it that's all blind to the people that you're providing the asset management capability to so let me give you an example here and see if um if we could talk so in the shared service organization um what we're really looking to do is support a use case like this and again I'm using the government use case because it was public and we started with that so Public Safety wants this digitize pay citation so they what they do is they go to the shared service area and typically what shared service is doing is saying okay I can get you all the virtual machines you need for that I can get you your IP addresses I can get you your DNS entries so the shared service organizations are really moving away from that because that low-level stuff is really far away from the value that they're looking to get right what they want to do is be able to manage a constituent request to pay Public Safety right to pay a public safety citation so what we're trying to do here is get away from selling technology out of our foundational area to developing products that get closer to the value that our customers are looking for so if we if this is a product we're managing constituent request management then what they're able to do is come in here and we we skip all of the technology and we move right to the more to the value package right to a higher value package so in product management that's one of the big benefits in these foundational product areas for shared services is you're able to package these things in any way you want to so if they come in and ask for that you're able to pass that back to the factory right so depending on the technology you've selected to do constituent request management which again Public Safety doesn't see any of it they don't know that they're getting a a server underneath this or an IP address all they know is they're getting this constituent request management package which comes with certain things and we'll we'll break out the package a little bit but then they're able to interact with the factory and the factory might say well we we have a way to manage constituent requests but we don't have a payment so we have to do an integration and then we're able to provide that pay citation now there's another product here that's that's managed you're creating a a public safety product with a pay citation service in it right so this might be a product here and this might be the first service that that product offers um so there there's different ways to group it up here externally but we're really focused on this internal delivery here on what product management can bring in the shared service area so this is kind of where you're you know in that last screen that $580 million doll right goes to building these types of things and that's really what we want to improve on by moving to a product manager so a lot of times what happens here is um and I see this with service now where they'll come in and they say oh we can do that with service now right and you don't even want that because that's not getting close to the value they're like what the heck is service now and why should I use it so you're starting from scratch but here we're saying a product manager could manage that package because we know what our state or our County or our city in this case we know the type of thing that they need and we know how to get them 80% of the way there for all of these in this case constituent Services right that they'd be coming in for so building those packages is a way to use that product management to do it okay so if we look at that constituent request management package uh how would it be structured differently than what we're doing today so the first thing you have to do is look at the team and this is one of the concerns um in organizations a lot of times you don't have product managers you have project managers and you have brms or business analysts but you don't really have people that are product managers so this is the the people and when you say determine pricing a lot of times we're starting to do chargebacks sometimes not right those shared service organizations are sometimes attacks across all the other areas and other times they're a chargeback where they have to recover the cost of the shared service organization so that product manager has to deal with pricing in some way and also costs right so they're have going to determine what capabilities am I putting in this package that I could sell back to the rest of the organization so that they can use it either for employee services or customer services okay so they're going to be measured on being able to assemble those packages so that they can increase the adoption so a lot of times like with Asset Management people in service now will do asset management and it's just for the IT team right and nobody else is able to use Asset Management but if you have a product manager right their their goal is to take asset management and maybe even roll that into configuration management so that you have more consumers of the product so you're out there trying to sell that product and and raise the subscription base of it so there's an internal and an and an external role for a product manager if we're talking in state local government you also need a liaison so there's people that need to be able to understand that package that you created and be able to go outbound and talk to the organization about using it so a lot of times now they're given the option do I use that infrastructure networking stuff in shared services or do I go out and buy that in the public space and different departments can do that right we know that they can go out there and they can get a VM from Amazon or they can but why do we want them to come through us to get that so this agenc liaison is able to communicate that value the architect um how do they use these higher value building blocks and not only iterate on that the product that we're building from the customer which in this case is that that pay citation U and use the building block we had in shared services to to fulfill that request but how do we iterate on the shared service so that we're making it more valuable and then the developer so if we take a product manager um and and we a lot of times these aren't there today and I know some people have this so they might disagree with me on on the call next week we'll actually we'll hear some people that actually did this but that product manager what they're concerned with is the pricing and the capabilities so here what I said it doesn't have to match the vendor right so if we come in and we say look here's all things that service now has that I can use so I'm going to use the the public sector core I'm going to use the constituent experience so these are vendor capabilities that I'm picking from but the beauty of doing constituent request management is not to resell stuff you have right but but also to bring in what you need so in the case of a state I would want to bring in like payen for my payment Gateway and docy sign so I can build my constituent request package with with a bigger set of things across the organization you're not bound to any one technology you're building the package right to get like I said to get those departments 80% of the way there when they talk about hey I'm I need a new customer request well we have this package that our our product manager put out right that has all these things in it so the product manager is out there saying okay what else do you need well some of the stuff that I have coming in for my customers need to get signed well how do I put Doc you sign in that package so that every time we do a new service we don't have to go and figure out our docu sign integration um so that's that's the type of thing when you get to product management you're able to really focus on that value and the proliferation of that product throughout the organization John isn't this where it gets a little interesting with platforms sub products or or platforms that underpin so you know there's probably a service now platform product owner yeah but obviously this product the constituent request management product owner is picking the things off that platform that they're going to be dependent on they may change your mind later they may say hey I get something better I'm going to go over that this other platform but they can compose that solution using whatever platforms or services are available from the for other product owners who are providing those and then maybe they're adding some of their own pieces to the puzzle and they can then make the choices over time to shift and move that that te technology base as appropriate to the business value and cost and efficiency and all that stuff exactly yeah a lot of that comes from like the service management area too right where you just you you kind of genericize the service so you can swap out whatever Tech you want behind the scenes absolutely and and the same thing here goes too like if I you know just using service now as an example because we're all service now users right but if you're you're going down this list you might just say that I'm just going to get some basic things out that I can explain but longer term I'm GNA add on a playbooks right or I'm going to add on process optimization like I'm going to do things that are increasing the value of that base pack package so I can go back and all of those you know like in the state we have about 1,400 services so if if the state has 800 services on service now if I if I improve the base everybody gets improved right so if I do the integration with um chat GPT if I do AI integration on these cases everybody gets that AI integration either on the agent side or the customer side so the the value here right is that you're doing these pack packages that are that are pretty consistent so that everything isn't a snowflake right and it's really hard to manage and um these packages help a lot with that just quickly from the discussion there's a lot of talk about like product owner versus product manager and I think I've kind of tried to address that and others have jumped in but like those are roles and I think one of the important things that that John's talking about about here is product management as a discipline those two roles like if you look at safe or other frag Frameworks they have differing um job rooll descriptions and that and that's all kind of really dependent on how your organization works with whatever Frameworks you're working with when we're talking that bigger picture product management discipline one of the really key areas as a discipline is when you're trying to do product management the entities responsible for product management need to have visibility of fully loaded costs for the entire life cycle of that product not just for like the initial standup project and not just for hey we're doing a special upgrade project but they got have that fully loaded cost of of all those things from that earlier slide that the hardware the Telecommunications and all that but also the people the service delivery people it's all the things that go into delivering that digital product that digital service and if they don't have control and visibility over that cost to me you're doing something other than product management that that's the key differentiator of this approach and I think it's one that Orcs have a really hard time giving up uh they like putting lower level people in charge of um and calling them a product manager or a product owner but they're not giving up that budgetary control they'll keep that with with capital M management that sort of thing so think of it this as this is a discipline it's a set of actions and you can do product management with a variety of roles and you can power those roles differently but how you tell you're doing product management the discipline is budgetary control visibility accountability for Value delivery to your customers y thanks Charles all right so continuing on with that product manager they have to be able to get get these packages and um the big thing is explaining it right explaining the value and making sure that you're communicating what's the outbound piece so one of the ways to explain it is in the catalog right these are this is the constituent request management package that I'm offering and you're we're charging a certain amount and so if it's fulfiller base like we're doing in service now that's fine if it's something else right you'll be able to explain that in a package and that's basically the role of that that product manager create these packages and make sure that the organization can use them in the shared service perspective and make sure that you have like more of them can consume them as you go so most of in the shared services you're building that that catalog that be can be consumed we're talking about the people that communicate it what they need to do is they be able they need to be able to show it right so you have to give them the ability to go ahead and and say hey this is what you get so the big the three big things in a in a customer request would be I would show them the customer portal like we you don't have to build your own website um you're not going to get you know a URL and and an you know place to do it we already have the website for you and your request is going to land in that website that we already have right so you all that stuff is kind of pushed away it's not starting from scratch getting you know like krupal page or something like they do in a lot of governments and then starting to build on top of that the next piece is what happens when these requests come in so like in the case of the agent portal right what do the agency as these these come in and then on the analyst side how do we measure that and so the big focus of these product man of the uh liaison is to be able to show somebody this very quickly and explain it to them in the agency so we're not explaining what service now is we're not explaining what a constituent service is we're not right we're not explaining all those pieces and developing this huge bill of materials that we typically have in a shared service organization we're we're explaining what they need more directly in in this package that we're able to [Music] manage so one of the things you could do if um and one of the things I would do if I was product managing and they said build this constituent request management when you look at a timeline I have to be able to deliver value faster and that's what you're looking to do when you manage services so what I would do is I would say that I'm going to build a 15minute MVP so once they filled out this constituent request form and said I'm interested in that service what what my product would do is orchestrate a series of actions that happen anytime we build a constituent request so I'd fill out the form it would initiate a workflow and that workflow would actually send an email to that person um in this case I have report of legal hunting it would send an email and says here's access to your catalog item within 15 minutes of you pressing the button so we don't need a developer in there to start building this or we don't need six months of planning before we get you an MVP we can send them an email that we already built that because the base build is the same you're going to take a request you're going to put that request form in the catalog in the catalog where the customer are and then you're going to um give that agent sign so I could give them access in an email to all those things so that they could see what it looks like I could say you can go here and edit it so one of these links would be to edit that and then another one of the links would be hey here's the actual form as it sits today it might not have all the fields you need in it right now U to fill out that request but here's all the plugins that you know I put a map plugin so I can tell you where it is so you can start to develop those checkboxes on your form so that you can build that base form for them automatically of course in a Dev environment right so that they could instantly see what they would actually be subscribing to and that's the way a product manager could come in instead of saying hey we implemented CSM on service now or we we implemented something else and you can come in and request it U this is kind of giving them real-time feedback on their request now if you look at the architect side I'm going to give you a basic example like the architect could come in and a lot of these things we get to afterwards like I know a lot of you on the call are talking about how do we back into csdm how do we go to csdm and take all the things we have and build a model around it so that we can support those things well if you have this base package you can automate that those initial architecture diagrams so what I could do is series of steps here to actually build the business service and the service offering and this is pretty easy to do once you know the technology that you're using on the back end so that you have a common service data model representation for that product manager they now know that I'm doing this for Public Safety and Public Safety is using it they have their own business service that they're providing and they're using you know whatever pieces you put in there whether it's um you know ezri or DocuSign and now right so all those pieces could be automatically attached because you built that package out now these are this is an example of one of the models uh using a third party in service now a designer view right but this is kind of what you could get is we talked a little bit last week around don't design cstm um you know there's no General model it's like who needs the picture so in this case we're developing a snapshot of that service that we're building uh we're developing that snapshot for that product manager right so that they can see all the pieces and all the consumers so that that could land like this right based off is issuing these series of steps in a workflow to create that piece I know a lot of you I've heard of people doing this before so I think there is some automation around that that modeling that's already done I want to give you an example example U this is one we walk through where we were saying hey we're going to do licensing and permitting and we're going to do air quality we're going to we're going to do an open burning permit and then we started to say hey can we use the citizen request package to do that and we said yeah but hey this citizen request package only got us 20% of the way there not 80% so the Architects start looking and they said okay what's unique or What's um common across all these permits well for every permit I need to define whether it's a a a company or whether it's a a consumer an individual consumer I need to go ahead and Define a geographical area that I'm asking for that open burning permit in right so what we could do here is now that product manager says hey I have enough things in here that I can create another high value package even higher value now I could create a specific permitting package so that when somebody comes in instead of just giving them a request I'm now going a couple clicks up and building somebody called it a higher block of Legos where I'm already able to say that this is a specific type of request which is which is permitting right and again it has to if if you're gonna have one customer that's going to consume that you don't want to build the product but you know some state governments they'll have 3,000 4,000 permits so developing that package is a real high value high value item so what you would see there is kind of like in our example in the beginning right they come to shared services Environmental Quality needs that burn informit and instead of going to constituent request management we're able to filter them to a place in our catalog that's more licensed request management and this is what the product managers they looking to do right is how do I grow my subscription base so now they're looking to how do I develop these higher level packages I might still need to go down here and get it's specifically configured and integrated but then I'm passing that burn permit back up to that Environmental Quality area so that's what I mean with the architect where they're iterating on this and this right there's other ideas that could come in here to extend That Base package that you've created so it's a continual learning and a continual development process instead of instead of saying right like hey there's a new project we need because we're going to build out license request management then the Project's done and then there's no ongoing care and continual Improvement on that right the product manager is going to make sure people are using this or maybe I should get rid of it right we haven't had anybody request that in in nine months or I'm not going to ask for more investment because I know we have 40 customers and there aren't any more to get right so I'm not going to invest in that I'm going to look for maybe optimization so that I can reduce costs on that area and maybe spend it on something else where I can help more people from my shared service perspective that's a lot of what product management brings in this area the developer I'll go through real quick so before you go on um from the chat there's a question here I'll read out another big ambiguity around products in scope of digital products as a value delivery by a company and shelf-based products I.E Microsoft Oracle specifically if a company uses service now software Asset Management I believe we all benefited from better data model alignment of these on the platform as well as their placement in csdm I interpreted that question as as like there's kind of two classes of products there's the products that we buy from other people we're the consumers of and we're using that and we're using those products to then build and deliver our products that we're delivering to other people and so so it they're all products it's just you're flipping the roles of who's the consumer and who's the provider there um and and in part of my answer there I said I've heard that csdm 5 is working on better exploring that space But I don't really know the details and there was a follow-up question around is there a draft of csdm 5 to be released soon and how taxonomy there relates to Business Services um John do you know anything about um timelines or or availability on CSD and5 yeah there there's a couple videos out there on csm5 and where the digital products are coming in but it's an ongoing discussion with uh with Mark and Scott and the part three of this we'll be talking about a lot of that on where we're going with digital products because I know a lot of you are create trying to create these packages today and it it's hard when when they group a lot of dissimilar things right like trying to put an application together and a business service together in a in a service you have to pick one or the other in in cstm 4 so a lot of that a lot of those barriers is what they're trying to remove in cstm 5 but I think in part three of this we should be able to cover that with some of the experts so I will um we and I'll talk a little bit about those meetings as we go I'll talk a little bit about you know how we get there and what's coming for that piece we're also going to talk about it for it a little bit because that's the standard where a lot of digital product definition is being incorpor orporated so we're getting more of a a broader industry perspective than just service now from that committee from that open group committee so a lot of that'll come together the it for it stuff and then that'll filter into csdm so we'll have those answers but it won't be until um two meetings from from today we'll have a better idea of that for you one more bit there there's a comment the same applies to internal products one digital product can utilize another internal digital product as part of its solution absolutely I I'll say the the key thing here is you got to get used to context switching in your brain and how you understand that is you're you're looking for cons consumption Behavior like who's consuming something and who's providing that something and and that will help you figure out like the product is the something and anytime you're you're seeing that consuming providing that that behavior um you can have a whole bunch of products in the mix that that are consuming and providing this various mix of things so it is confusing it is recursive just focus on you can figure out what the product is by watching consumption and value delivery and who's providing that that sort of thing yeah one thing I wondered too like if if I'm a product manager and I'm doing like this burn permit thing and I'm able to get one picture of a csdm and it says hey these are all the licenses like the business apps I'm using do I really need a digital product to to Define my digital product right if I could put it all in one like here's a picture of my digital product which are all these pieces that's in that cstm picture and I don't care about certain things as that that product manager but I care about the contracts on on my my ezri contractor docy signed contract or service now contract I care about those so I should care about the business apps business capabilities I don't really care about because so I don't need those right so I'm wondering it like today there wouldn't be anything holding you back from representing all the pieces that make up your product um the objects Mark will talk about the objects and where we can be more explicit about that but I think if you get the right picture the right perspective of the common service data model you can do that today on 4.0 yeah it and think that's such a key thing John like when I work with customers around csdm you've got this map that that picture with the blue and green and and orange uh rounded rectangles and all of that and it's daunting you're you're always like where do you start you always start or I advise you always start with a story you're trying to tell and so so it's always you pick a Viewpoint through that and you pick the elements from that pictoral map that help you tell that story story of like what do we need to do to support the bird permit service offering or what do we need to do like what is my application depend upon and who depends upon my application when I'm trying to understand the difference between business and Technical Services you don't go into csdm with that whole vast array of potential entity types and try to do the whole thing at one time you just start layering stories and because they're all built on the common map of the csdm those stories build each other and they reinforce each other and you get a more Rich implementation as you go right like if I'm the um if I'm the product manager and I'm offering um let's say this instead of itsm here let's say this is Environmental Quality and the service offering is a burn permit all I really need to know is this person that's providing this citizen request service I don't need to know all the servers that are supporting it so I don't want to see that actually because as long as I know that this there's a product manager here taking care of this for me uh you know I could stop there but I also need to know the people that are taking her the licenses for me for the applications because if a license is going to expire up here um or there's some volume discounting that could come in because I'm I'm growing my subscription based um I need to know that person so this might be enough of the csdm for that person to see so I don't want to show them all those servers and everything else because that's as long as it's abstracted behind a contract that that meets your needs perfect you know if you you have to trust trust and believe and have some sort of recourse because you're betting your your your function your product on that underlying product and make sure that they they can meet your needs and and not functional and non-functional requirements yeah absolutely and to your point before Jeff right this could be service now could be the product itself right service now there could be the service now prodct there could be two levels there could be sort of the itsm product and below that might be this the service now product you know well that is infrastructure products which are providing this you know whatever the other case might be it can get really recursive really fast like Charles said and that's hard to get people's minds around exactly and this is where I was um like if we go back to our portfolios in the beginning um at some level there's going to be investment decisions now this is probably too idealistic but I put it up here anyway but if you do have those foundational portfolios like we talked about in the beginning and we have constituent request Management on there the idea here is that there's some investment decision being made across all of your shared services all of your foundational services and some decisions made on what is our digital Factory and this is where platforms really come in right so I have a factory to work on GIS stuff and a factory to work on Integrations so how is that structured but how are we making our overall decisions on our entire digital Factory tool set like how are we investing so that we're smarter about doing this and we don't have you know 175 different ways of creating services so that if we actually had um people that managed the portfolios at these four levels that would be a perfect world now service now I have here because um this is more of service now governance structure but typically we would push the service now product manager and that's the way that I talk about this person is they're managing tenants on the platform so so they would manage like itsm would be a tenant CSM would be a tenant um irm would be a tenant right and there would be product managers of there could potentially be product managers of those that are making the offerings out to the public so yeah this gets daunting like how do I do this the way to get started um right when this is actually a perfect example to talk about the Shelf products and the products that we developed internally right if you take service now the platform by itself is really something that we buy and we care about licensing we care about performance technology performance um uh reliability right all all those good things about platform yeah but then when you go to itsm or change management specifically or one of those orm products here you come with the stakeholders with the value delivered with the processes your level as a product manager or product owner is more abstract from a technology and really focusing on that value chain um of delivery you got it so that's kind of in my opinion how I see it it's as you said it's difficult for many of us to grasp that differences right the just content switching here it's really important yep like if you're the service manager product owner your job is to get more people using the platform right and and get get them off of all those disparate things that are being used out there and to protect them all from each other so that somebody doing something on the platform in HR doesn't mangle what people are doing an itsm or field service or any other part of the platform exactly yeah there'll be certain parts that demand to do that hrp or to do the irm piece that you'll get dragged into because it's a platform thing that they need um but you don't need to be involved in all of it I've heard you speak about the service management office Concept in previous presentations how would you see that structure fitting in this slide here the the SML would usually fall under the the factory um so this is the factory is the one that's actually taking in a lot of the requests and then being able to say okay how do we what is our Matrix what's all the stuff we have in our toolbox so how do we put that thing together so the the Smo like creating services or here we'd have a you know more of products that might create Services right but they're determined how do I build that product or how do I take that feature and make it part of an existing product or do we need a new product right so I think that Smo ends up the people that manage the the output of the products ends up in that digital Factory now was debating too with service now like where does that go I think like the service now the way it would like part under foundational products because you're using the platform and then part on the factory too because you're developing on the platform so this is a part we'd have to kick around some more and I know some people have actually done this some of the people that are doing digital product management today have done the restructuring to Define these roles and they're not necessarily positions but they're roles now somebody asked me later about earlier about a job so if you click on these um I do have what a product manager does and then there's a link here at the LinkedIn that I thought was really good that talks about some of the um you know the outbound part of that role like somebody said before it's not really about the technology it's about to build a product that a lot of people can use and get value from so that that role description is out on that LinkedIn so if you just click on these these roles we'll have some descript around them but um this is where I usually start when we're doing an engagement for Enterprise architecture and then we kind of we get some more reality here right what do we need to do well we're only building one digital product to try it out so here I might say look I have the service now product manager and then I have like an itam portfolio owner right and then underneath there we have Hardware so so it's going to look way different than this but this is the basic idea is where you want to get to where the executives are able to make strategic decisions the product managers and portfolio managers are all able to see that and then kind of you know bid on Solutions with their with their product areas so some of that will be driving the constituent portfolio in our case the customer portfolio the employee portfolio or like I said the ones that most of us work on are these the digital Factory and the foundational products there I I left some of the standard governance stuff in here um some of you have seen this already but how do those decisions get made and then how do they get steered into either that strategy board which is our our top lines um or how did they get steered more into the technical execution part and land in the right spot and that's where a lot of that accountability comes in uh who's making all these decisions and a lot of times they're pingpong balled all over the place so with the accountability once you get the product structure set up um you're able to make a lot better decisions on hey this pushes up the strategy because it's a big investment decision or to portfolio more that demand board that's kind of the Smo I guess a lot of that would fall into the Smo or the pmo area and then the technical board down here and then there's charters for each of these this is available online but I I put it in the deck just in case but it it shows you know for the accountability the frequency of the meetings so this is usually one a quarter on the executive level and then the people that should be involved and then same with the demand board uh meets a little bit more frequently and then the technical governance board which meets even more frequently right there's a lot more of this that happens um you know to depending on on the rate of change in your environment all right so the next two meetings I wanted to just set the foundation today but we will have a specific conversation on Charles started to go into this a little bit today and this is not an area that I'm an expert in so um I'll be learning on this along with you guys but it's really to talk about how does the financial pieace change and and you know Charles was involved in that before so hopefully he'll be one of our speakers on this we also have I'm going to reach out to Dan Warfield who's a publisher of some of the standards around digital products and um I've worked with him and taken some classes from him so hopefully we'll get them to come in and talk us talk to us more about that and then we have uh proven Optics and they have t taxonomies that they developed around the financial perspectives on digital product management and a little bit about how it's different than than traditional service management from there this is the part I talked about where I'm hoping to get mark on here um where we can talk about the csdm and where it's going to support digital products and then also on it for it and how that's feeding into the csdm there's a lot of overlap there but I like it for it because it really gives to do digital product management well and manage digital portfolios well um there's seven value streams in here that that tell you everything I should do during the evaluation phase during the um delivery phase so there the value streams will go through each of those phases and tell you it for it tells you what to you need to do but it doesn't tell you how to do it that's the way I like to look at it so it it tells you all the things that a full product management organization uh all the steps that they would do to go through and achieve all those benefits of of doing doing product management instead of project management so that's November 9th meeting we'll get to more of the that U meet that you were asking for before there's also been some questions about uh getting the slide deck and earlier I promised at the end of the meeting you'd tell how people can get the slide deck okay yeah I'm gonna put this out um I I always put it out on our our YouTube channel the um I'm not going to go through all the references in here because we're almost out of time and I'll get to where Charles was saying real quick uh we do this everybody on the call who's a customer has an architect Charles is one and I am one so when we come in we're able to help you just start breaking these down a little bit and seeing is it really worth it do I want to do one or my Executives just clamoring to do you know to move to digital products so all that stuff we can help you talk about that this a little bit about the group and what we're here to do it's more not to talk about individual products on service now but really to focus on the core of of digital product and Service delivery uh and that's what we see is foundational to digital transformation so we will do have these calls every two weeks and what Charles was just talking about here I'm gonna take this and um actually stick it in the but this one page will get you to where um you can get all of the previous meetings all the recordings as well as all the material that was shared uh during the meetings so this deck along with a video will be posted at that URL U by by Wednesday up next week we'll have it up there so there's there's um about 30 meetings out there that we've had um over the last two weeks you know the twoe increments so they're all out there on this form as well so most of the time you'll see the and then there's a link to our shared instance on there so if you want the shared instance some of the demos we do will be in that shared instance and I can give you all that as well any other questions Charles that I missed think I think we've caught them all um if we didn't please speak up all right and the Hope here is that you'll take these slides and use one or two of them that Mak sense right and that's that's our real goal here in when we share decks like this is for you to be able to take them so I won't put it out as a PDF it'll be a PowerPoint so you can rip slides out and use what you want and change what you what you don't want but all right hey John yeah just a little note this is Eda we so appreciate you I love coming to these when I can because there's always a topic we always learn something you're not trying to sell us anything so thank you oh you're welcome you're welcome looking forward to getting you on here too at yes all right and everybody else has anything uh let me know if if you want to get involved in any of these meetings if you have a financial perspective love to hear from you because you know I can only give you the theoretical stuff we need to grab other people to give you the actuals like people that have been there and done it so definitely like Eda definitely looking to hear from you as well all right thanks everybody and we'll talk to you in a few weeks