hey fellow servicenow devotees get ready to embark on a journey through the fascinating realm of servicenow with none other than the service docks themselves I'm James downs and I'm Rush here whether you're new to servicenow pre-aspin veteran or just a curious Soul we're here to bring you servicenow Curiosities exhilarating interviews and don't forget the infamous A to Z game but mostly it's about the random ramblings of two middle-aged guys with a funny story or to tell right yeah true the Ducks are ready the mics are on and we can't wait to have you join us let's Dive In welcome back to the service dots podcast so in today's episode we are well it's James and I standard setup but we're also joined by none other than Lauren McMullen have I said your name right is that the right way it was pretty good it was pretty darn good it's I've had it butchered in a million ways so anything that's relatively close I'm like heck yeah we're going to talk about and Lauren you don't actually know what we're going to talk about yet do you yeah the general agenda if we follow agendas yeah I think we're gonna we're gonna go through um Lauren is a Dev advocate so we're going to talk about what Deva Advocate is we're going to talk about see if you can give us your road to become a Dev Advocate because some of us might want a gig yeah um then we've got a section at the end around uh we're gonna do what we're now calling this section James's silly question can't think of a better name so I'm gonna go with that we've got an alphabet quiz at the end I have I've heard of the infamous alphabet we'll see how I do you know what we've done that a few times right and it's um it's amusing that everyone sits there yeah I don't care I don't care but as soon as you start oh yeah the competitive mode of course um but we're also going to talk about we can't really skip over the fact that we had the Vancouver webinar yesterday depending on when you're listening to this so we want to talk a little bit about that and get Lauren's top picks for the Vancouver release so Laura let's let's start off with uh what is a Dev Advocate what what is a difficult what do you do what's a day in the life of so a developer Advocate at servicenow at least because it does vary from company to company like sometimes they're under the sales team sometimes they're under the IT team at servicenow they are part of the marketing team and we focus on ensuring the success and overall well-being of the Developers for our platform so in this case servicenows platform so we do that a variety of ways I think the most obvious at the moment is enablement so like y'all said we just kicked off The Vancouver like content period so we'll be putting out a lot of enablement content so that's one way and the other ways are encouraging a sense of community so like we help uh reinforce the success of the developer meetups the MVP program a lot of the stuff at knowledge in our larger conferences um and there's a lot of other like smaller projects we work on but those are the two biggest I would say the biggest uh pillars I would say our community and enablement so coming back to the content action so there's no um there's no hiding the fact that you're you're on social media right so you've got on multiple different platforms right so we'll shall I try and list them if I can Twitter anymore LinkedIn um Tick Tock you're on Tick Tock yeah yeah you laugh I I actually that's um you go by the handle of Posh programmer yeah that's me on most places is there is there a story behind that uh I think in college I was looking for something alliterative that that didn't have any numbers in it and that was the CL and that was the one I saw I got it like on everything I I wasn't even using it for the longest time I got it on Twitter I got it on YouTube I got like on everything some of them are completely like dormant but I do use the one for uh Instagram and I think Twitter actually I haven't posted on Instagram in like three years I didn't miss the Instagram but I I bring the content side up because I know with them with new releases you've got a Content scheduled which includes things like blogs videos webinars um podcasts etc etc but I something I want to ask you right around your content creation and I think I said this to you before but you're when you do your videos do you edit this or is it servicenow editing your videos so if I if or if anyone on our team is putting out a video it is self edited uh the service team is very small it's just Chuck tomasi Earl UK Prada Baga and I and I I think if we asked or put in more of like a wine behind it we could probably find someone to edit it for us uh but right now we've it's a completely like self-organized effort I asked that because your videos the editing on it is really on point the the quality is crisp it's very good it's very good produced and there's one other thing I've noticed and you're doing it today right do you match your glasses I I literally so I got these glasses right before knowledge I I had a pair that I had had since I was 18. 18 and they were falling apart and uh the gentleman that worked in my optometrist office he like hard sold me on these and I was like they're kind of loud and he's like no no like I think they'll really work and like they're really eye-catching I was like okay and then I wore them at knowledge and so they became kind of like a a recognizable piece of like Chuck's bow tie almost like yeah you find yourself becoming this kind of character and you know someone who's known or you know like say Chuck bow tie we talk a lot about building our own kind of like personal profiles we've been talking about yes a lot we're like next gen and those coming new into servicenow and how important it is to build your own brand I guess and we'll promote yourself so yeah I can see that what do you think your thing is then James well my thing is I don't know the wheel the orange yeah yeah the orange jumper looks like a Tango man yeah well the funny part was is that I didn't have these glasses on at the airport after knowledge and I put them on and then the person next to me was like oh I've seen you all over the conference no idea I guess it was like my Superman moment of like I guess they really do change like how you look foreign [Laughter] I've got new lights up here this is a podcast it's not very good for radio is it um I'd like to say it wasn't to kind of blend in with your backing lighting it totally was I was there at lunchtime making sure it all fit anyway um looks really nice it's working I can check no let's let's move on let's move swiftly on so if you haven't yet caught Lauren on uh socials at Posh programmer uh really good videos are on point coming back to the dev Advocate thing um so how what was your road to become a Dev advocate so if James James wants to become a Dev Advocate how does he do it what does he have to do I do well I would say first and foremost get experience in the platform or software you'd like to advocate for so I start off as a developer I worked for a company for about two years and for a lot of those two years I was their only servicenow like developer so I it's it's very common I don't think we like to talk about as much but it's pretty common that when people start off on service now it's usually like some person's thing not a teams thing uh and that person is gonna judge jury and executioner and that was me aside from like the oversight from my boss but the the bonus of that is like you get a tremendous amount of experience so that company was fantastic but it was very like horizontally organized there's not a lot of places you could go um so I had reached out to my I reached out to my service cell like rep and I was like hey is there like uh a job where I could like talk about service now and it's Tech like I wouldn't even know what it's called and he was like oh it's solution resulting I was like I've never heard of that he's like you know that person that always comes with me I'm like yeah he's like the person that knows how the software works I'm like yeah he's like that's their job oh okay so uh when I joined servicenow it was under solution Consulting I think that helped develop a lot of the skills that I use for developer advocacy I think it it taught me a lot of presentation skills and like how to communicate with audiences of variable sizes right like doing a keynote is like very different from having like a one-on-one intimate conversation with some like coaching session and so like you learn a lot in that regard there so I'd already known the the software I learned the the soft skills of like how to translate a message to a crowd of of different sizes and then together I think those kind of represent a lot of the responsibilities of like an advocate yeah we we talk a lot about those kind of soft skills and kind of going back to the messages that we've been given to a lot of the the new starters in servicenow and new devs and new admins and we're we've really been trying to push that and we know that some part of the you know the next gen programs and the programs um of of those um involved with that but um I know that um for us especially because we come from like a service desk background so the way that we've kind of got into service now is we've kind of done that kind of hard graft of working on the service desk we kind of worked with the software and then we've got in through consultancy through uh through that way um do you kind of miss that kind of client interaction at the moment do you kind of lose that being senior like development Advocate um or do you still have that um you know that kind of interaction with customers and projects and you know that sort of side of things I would say I actually probably get more uh connection with developers in this job I think for in sales right you're dealing with a lot of like Executives and things like that um which is a different conversation it's I'm actually a lot more at ease on the developer advocacy team because I feel like oh these are my these are my people right I'm back with my crowd of people yeah and would you would you have you done the CMA course because a lot of them sort of skills and speaking to to that sort of levels are being teached through the the CMA course and I don't want to rehash stuff that was with last week with Jeremy through uh CMA and advocacy no I I haven't done this in this program I've seen people go through around when I was a customer because I did like the certified admin and certified Dev so I feel like that would have been on a natural path I'm not sure it was either it was either very very new or I don't know if my company would have paid for it so it wasn't on my rate yeah before you you joined servicenow and you said you said something um that struck my interest when when you mentioned that like most people it became your thing service now became your thing when you were in the customer environment right yeah and you know it's something that James and I spoke about a few times now um and it comes back to passion for the platform and the passion for what we're doing Jeremy mentioned it we mentioned it before in terms of our top tips for people that kind of want to bag a job and display passion how do you display passion and I think it's interesting that you say it became my thing because I had the same same thing right I I was on the service desk and then I got handed this tool and said well you're looking after this now yeah and I think when something's yours you become a lot more a lot more passionate for it right absolutely so it's just interesting that you should pick up on or I'll pick up on on when you said that um because it kind of resonates with what we've been saying and follows it through um and it certainly comes across when you do things like your presentations that you did yesterday in terms of your Vancouver webinar yeah it's so amazing to see I think when I joined like the community I think we were on I think it was Geneva so to see it transform as much as it has in the past like five or six years is truly like a remarkable thing because I get a lot of questions I just I think either today or next week or whatever is my sixth anniversary at service now I think a lot of my my like friends are like I can't believe you've been at a a job that long and I would say I think a lot of that is a huge Testament to how much change the platform is showcased to keep be like really interested and really passionate about it I think that's a huge reason so here's a question which we may or may leave in or out depending on everyone look have you got any aspirations to kind of move in different areas within service now so Dev Advocate now a lot of I know um Brad Brad Tilton um for example goes on to uh uh product product owner product manager but he's progressed in that way is that something you want to do you've got all about that oh well I think the problem with me is I'm still relatively new to marketing so I'll only join the team uh like a little bit over a year ago and so I'm still kind of figuring out the overall territory if anything what's more enticing to me is uh relevance to different types of geolocations like I'm extremely passionate about international business so if anything would be a huge motivating factor it would be getting to do more in other like countries and stuff like that that would be amazing so have you have you traveled a lot is that something you wanna you want to come and work work in the UK I love that that'd be so I did my study abroad in Scotland so I I love I I value travel probably more than anything else I think it's offered me the most like value in my life I love traveling all right last question have you tried these three things have you tried first of all Iron Brew yes do you like it or not I thought it was fine okay uh battered Mars Buzz yes yes that's good oh great okay last one what was it buckfast no what's that no well you don't want that you're like correct answer very strong um like red wine style drink really cheap really horrible that's probably why I'm not a big red wine fan so that's probably why I lucked out yeah if you could pick anywhere in the world you haven't been to yet where would you go they haven't been to yet oh you make it sound like you've been everywhere when you said that no it's just something I I've never been to Italy I'd really like to see Italy oh nice bit of advice gonna roam room yeah I went on a cruise and we went to Rome uh Florence and Pompeii um absolutely stunning my difficulty is that I've been to certain places that I've loved so much it's hard to pick up because I went I think my favorite three are Japan uh Scotland and Iceland I love those stories so much it's hard to beat them see I grew up in Scotland so I would advise against it I loved it it was my fate I was saying abroad there so I have a very like fond memories of my like six weeks there is the best when was the last place you went uh last place I went was Paris I just went to Paris uh I went in early June so it wasn't like chaotically busy or hot yet uh I will I will say uh my favorite place I went was Monet's garden that was that was amazing uh most uh the biggest letdown was the loot was the Louvre and I will say it was the way it was organized so I had never been I'd never been in the Louvre all I knew is that's one of the biggest museums if not the biggest on Earth yeah and I made a map of like all the artwork I wanted to see like I'm a big art nerd and I knew that if I didn't I'd miss stuff and then as I'm making the map I'm realizing everything is in only one of the three Wings which I'm like oh it's all in that one Wing So any any major art piece you think of with the loop whether it's obviously the Mona Lisa the Venus the Venus de Milo yeah the crap the crowning of Napoleon The Death of Marat all of it is in One Wing so no even if you're trying to avoid the Mona Lisa crowd you're stuck with that because everyone goes to that Wing oh it was intense and that place was hot yes yeah yeah and I definitely it was I will say I got there I had the ticket booked for the opening time on the least busy day and it was like the freaking amazing race trying to get to the Mona Lisa first like people were like running and I was like this is amazing elbowing people out of the way yeah yeah I spent about an hour one thing I love to do at Museum museums is I love to take pictures of people interacting with art I think it's it's like a little hobby I have I always wear like my camera and so watching people take pictures of the Mona Lisa was almost more like entertaining to them it's a bit creepy but it's fun like it was very sweet to see people with like all like like races and backgrounds and ages like so excited to see like a piece of artwork I think it's very sweet pretty good yeah I went a long long long long long long time again I don't think I would go back alienating more people James today oh we do that all the time every single episode you know what is interesting though that in Paris they speak French any other countries that speak French Canada what's in Canada Vancouver nice Segway yeah it couldn't have been planned because I didn't know where you went last um so let's talk a little bit about Vancouver though so we did the we had the webinar yesterday um yes and I've already said to you said this to you um before we started but the presentation was absolutely on point you guys must rehearse and what you don't know right or what you don't see is you have you and and Chuck have the the the webinar up and you can see the chats coming through yes but you don't see the chats that we have internally in the companies no yeah I wish we did you know what it was brilliant so we were sat there on teams um other channels are available like suck whatever but we had a channel going and it was just full of chatter people chatting and going oh I don't like that I like that and a big round of applause and and I'll I'll let you guess which got the biggest um eruption there were gifts memes everything flying um you can guess in a second but it was just quite nice this camaraderie that when you guys um are presenting and going through everyone's excited and gets involved so I want to give you that bit of feedback because I'm not sure you get that it's a world thank you for that and there was a statement and I didn't actually make to someone I said this is a demo masterclass um for people so pay attention um so here you go before we get into your topics what do you think got the biggest Round of Applause I think it probably has to do with I mean I think by Trend alone maybe some of the AI stuff perhaps no was it was it flow designer was it was it my favorite was it for a designer puppy I heard a statistic the other day of how out like what percentage of our customers use flow designer and it was not up to my liking so I'm always like I will fight for people to use people still hang on to work Floyd have I told you James what got the biggest reaction no no it's a game for both of you come on I'm also presuming to go back a feature designer yeah [Music] go back feature there was a big round of applause and I can't tell you how happy I was when I saw that I released documents I was like oh my gosh oh my gosh we're finally getting rolled back yeah it's one of those that's been waiting for it for a long long time and I mean I've been on the platform like 12 years yeah and I shouldn't say this but I can script faster than I can use Photo designer however Flow Design is more scalable I get it and I push it and I promote it it's no problem yeah but that was just another kind of oh okay it's getting close to the old workflow that I love I love my drag and droppy stuff we had a great podcast episode where we discussed around the use cases of flow designer and what can you replace with flow designer yeah remember that going back to that site can you replace business rules can you replace old workflows can you replace script includes maybe um you know yeah Limitless and possibilities with that yeah but um but that got a massive reaction so um well done service now so anyway coming to the Vancouver release with your top picks and your are you allowed to say stuff that you presented I think you are yeah I will say because we're only one day removed from it uh so a little inside baseball basically we get a huge like spreadsheet of enhancements so go off of that's the first thing we get we get a whole list of all the improvements for app engine uh automation engine platform and then we divvied them up so we divvied up based off our like personal preference so I take a lot of the low code automation stuff uh just because I like to cheerlead for it and so then we work with the product teams to get information on those specific things I have not done a tremendous amount of research into my other teammates things yet because we were so focused on our own stuff right yeah but I'm I'm really I'm very excited to see um the first dip into AI for service now um I think it's really important to say that this wasn't just like a knee-jerk reaction to its current like popularity it's been something that's it really worked for quite a while um and so I think that exploring that is it's like in the first foray of that will be very interesting to see and I think create even better ideas for where it could go you know which side are you leaning towards you more on the um text to code or the naris on the case stuff you have to help me out here but I I think it is the most immediate value with summarization so that's always going to be the first barrier for people in work in general is just the like a lot of it right you open something up if it seems overly complex you instantly go not a priority for now so a very easy thing that can be done is providing summaries for people I will I hate sounding like a broken record that's why I like Photo designer because it does summarize what that flow is doing without any human interaction yeah so the Key summary stuff I think will be tremendously helpful for people just to say okay now I know what's going on where can I go from there versus oh I gotta sit here and read this 20 minute document you know do you see any gen AI kind of interaction with you you said you you're a big advocate for like low code no code app engine studio um me too by the way I literally just released a video out to do with the new features on that um on YouTube you've seen more AI capabilities in that area like suggestions for I don't know doing different things on a brand new UI Builder portal sort of thing or um you know have you have you heard any any things you know more in that sort of area because we didn't see much of that I don't think uh the one thing we did see is now assist so it's making recommendations for what to use next and flow designer now I'm in a different place because I know stuff that may be coming out in future store releases I don't know if it is so I'm like now I'm in the same boat like I don't know if I can say it but think of that at a larger scale and I think that's a good uh starting point for where we're going with that yeah I like the now assist you've just reminded me the the the the suggested next action yeah I really think no I don't even know what I'm doing next how's that I don't know I don't I think it's based off of um like large data sets of other flows and like traditionally what has been proven to be most because like it's kind of um there it's you know how there's that one saying that's like there's only like three types of story you know it's like every book follows like what are these three types of story there's a similar thing for automated workflows right like every flow it might be a different tables and stuff but they all kind of follow a similar path for the most part I bet it's something like that it's way over my head though I'm not smart enough to understand it should be clever enough to know what action the customer might like even though we don't know ourselves right crazy one thing that will if I have something to put onto the the Universe I was selling for my wish list and something I think AI could help with is and this is not I I will say this is a complete guess on my part this is not a inside baseball thing I know about this is not something that's confirmed from Washington I think it'd be really lovely one day if I pressed a button and it could inverted an existing workflow to a flow because I think that's another big barrier for people it's like well I spent my entire career working careful editor and even if I start now then I have to maintain them in both I want a button that turns workflow editors into flows so old school old school old school flow Legacy flow that's what I call it yeah I've said old school and I've gotten my hand slapped for it so they're like they're like you can't say old school-wise it's not good I'm like that's not saying it's not good I'm just saying it's the Legacy version no I like that I like the um I remember it's the last release but the select all in the flow and it turns into a subplot I've used that yeah yeah it's the little things it's the little things yeah the uh the new flow designer home page with the was it recent activity yeah and everyone's like what about generalize I know no it's the listening that's going to make me not run out of the room anymore happy they didn't make me cut that joke from Tech now where I'm like oh no I don't have to pretend it's bad conference why because I was like oh there's a chance they might be like you can't see that but like it was slow that's why we made it faster yeah do you know what I did um was it flow designer it might have been but I did a YouTube video going back or don't know a year ago and I hit the button and I went out for a run and came back and it just got me coming back oh my gosh I think I think I think actually it was a plug-in load it was that when okay okay um in the interest of time um and James you've got a you've got to dash off haven't you yeah how rude children but the interest of time I think what we'll move on to now is the section we like to call James's silly question I hire someone's fiber to do one for you and it is kind of linked to Vancouver in a way James it's your challenge to make that link over to you okay oh yeah sure so we know obviously with the release is going down the uh the alphabet um as we know cities and places and not strictly always cities um so Bill McDermott has come to you for advice said Lauren you're doing a great job for us but we need to be able to name our releases post Zed so you need to come up with your own naming scheme uh or theme um for the new releases post uh whatever Zed is um so that's our question to you this is our silly question this is um you can come up with whatever you like it doesn't matter how silly it is for for instance I think Jeremy come up with um soccer teams soccer teams oh yeah uh also I had to ask uh do I have the capacity to be sued like can I pick something that's copyrighted or is that not count with whatever it's at the name all 26 then if we never could get sued for this we should always name him after Pokemon because there's a thousand and one Pokemon and there's definitely one for each letter of the alphabet a hundred percent so yes you always have to go off the most difficult is there one for X yes zatu is there one for y yes like there's tons so yeah let's just pick Pokemon or dog breeds dog breeds could also be good because there's some weird I went to a dog show recently and I'm very keen on like dog breeds I love dog shows and even there I was like what the hell is that I've never seen that before yeah so they're like oh it's the Albanian you know rabbit hound and I'm like okay so you've um a little little white one that I'm sure it's been on a video well how do I know it's white if I've never seen it is it why yeah it's a little Bichon frize he's the best she's very dirty right now so he's not very white he's more eggshell but he's got Bichon fruit yeah okay yeah I'm sure I've seen it how would I know it's fine otherwise yeah he's in a bunch of videos and stuff Pokemon that is uh that's a good show that's a good bid Pokemon cards we had this big thing in the UK with Pokemon cards with like trading and heck yeah that's huge that's huge I don't know when do I tell them uh you sure sort of a year and a half ago because that was when they were like yeah they went bananas they put up in price now because my kids are collected as well I would take that I would get that graded you don't need them just give it to me I'll give it to my kids yeah yeah Pokemon though brilliant bit that's gonna be hard to beat that is I will say Nintendo is one of the most notoriously litigious companies on Earth so we might get sued if we do that but yeah it'd be worth it it'd be fun yeah Jeremy made a comment as well he said um oh we're mentioning all the brands let's just throw another one in there and you mentioned Jeep I think it was at the time maybe a bit a bit like we don't really worry about stuff like that is it is it is it in the UK or the difference between the UK and us or we just don't think this is the lay of the free the home of the the lawsuit so yeah I'll be able to use some of this though don't worry don't worry don't worry okay so we're coming to the world famous I'll explain the rules and be warned these change every time because I make it up as we go along oh no and I will remind you you are a guest although this is my game so I will just make it up fair enough right what's gonna happen on screen just in case you're listening to this you can see an a when I hit go it's going to go b c and you know how the alphabet kind of pans out right the the idea is it's going to be against the clock and for every letter you see Lauren you've got to say a servicenow thing or phrase that relates to that letter so for example a would be ACL right you can't have HDL I've just said you the one thing you're not allowed to just list versions so you can't say Aspen Berlin and just go through the whole alphabet yeah you can pass if you pass that's a 10 second penalty so we'll add 10 seconds to the overall time or you can sit there and content and think about it for a while but the time the clock is going to be going um yeah you're feeling the pressure now we have a league table of this and there are no well probably about four people on to be fair there's not that many yeah who's in the league at the minute James you're the keeper of all things well it's still Jace Benson so uh Jace Benson was six minutes 28 I believe and I think Jeremy was only about 10 seconds uh slower um and I think we were like well like into like eight or nine minutes or something because we've got stuff on one particular letter it was a really bad right this is and just for anyone that is listening it's gonna be a lot more dramatic when I edit it because we'll have music over the top yeah right just for everyone's info as well Lauren has sat forward and he's interested [Laughter] I'm on the timer and I'll count you down from three three two one Go app engine business rule client script uh on date the uh pass you don't get extra for naming two uh execute or Excel download because you can download those Excel files Employee Service portal uh uh oh come on Lauren come on uh she uh graphql h critical uh the answers you get nerd points reduce time if you can get a Vancouver I'm struggling wait wait why did you get page so I'm struggling with h uh oh wait no home page editor home page uh home page something [Laughter] integration hub J oh JavaScript editor um I mean it's a javascript-based platform yeah oh God what starts with a k I would say Kingston but that doesn't count um for trying do we did other people get k so give me give me give me a clue process there's lots of modules I don't know fast I don't know you even presented at one of these in May you know does that count you can have Kino you can have knowledge um macros um nodes for yeah go on yeah you think chuck could beat you yeah of course um operating system no I'm kidding okay fine uh oh what are we doing I'm confused and let you tell me if they count or not pee um oh process automation designer pad yes nice oh Jesus uh don't say quebecue you're not allowed to take question or answer table either now because I've just said it oh hey um I think we'll have to skip queue I don't I don't think there is one that's easy uh uh rest uh yeah rest yeah yeah yep uh a service portal uh I'm not gonna lie this is when it starts getting hard this is When the Music's gonna create when the time goes um hang on you oh uh users users could have had UI Builder UI build uh get under pressure I'm not gonna pressure uh Version Control Version Control go on all our Larry we'll allow it saying General cert like programming words but they are they are relative to servicenow W workflow editor the the cursed workflow editor uh XML XML that's nice good that's quicker than most people get that one yeah this is this one why yes you good lucks you minus 30 seconds I'll take 30 seconds well we had it last time I can't remember if Jeremy passed why what did he say and oh no he didn't oh I know he said I know what he said we've got a short week in the answer didn't I yeah you did uh you reckon I've taught long enough to confuse Lauren a bit I mean y'all are distracted me enough trying to think of even words that start with why I'm dropping the Box I've been a new presenter of Who Wants To Be A Millionaire couldn't I they're annoying as well I don't know I'll pass this one I'll go to 10 seconds now okay um and now my mind's a blank for Z [Laughter] that's the reaction we wanted [Laughter] um I don't know password Z as well I mean the pain to be over hopefully it's getting too embarrassingly I'm just not good Under Pressure like playing me in Scattergories is is just a bloodbath I'm awful at it which one was came up with why for last week Jeremy after prompting came up with the word yes it was all over your knowledge it was the key that's right it was part of The Branding yeah that's a bit of a reach but we learned it yeah for the top when I stopped the clock without taking the paths into consideration you've got five minutes 13. with the five passes which is 10 seconds each 50 seconds on top that's six minute and three seconds meaning you beat Jace by about 20 seconds congratulations he'll dust everybody do you know do you know how I think how I think you did so well on that it won because I think you're brilliant because you were very lenient no no because I think she was clever with the passes most people refused that's true most people have not passes and think for ages that's a good point because you have to have enough humility to pass if you because if it's I'm serious though because I'm like okay if it's a 10 Senate penalty if I'm gonna take more than 10 seconds is what more than Worthy wait have you calculated how long it would be if you passed every single one of them but I'm saying that's that should be a rule because if because if I'm gaming the system now 10 seconds if I passed every single one of them has it has it really come to this where you're starting to say the rules if you pass every single one of them I think you beat the record trust our guests and try and get involved I just won't publish the episode yeah that's it okay do you want to Mark the clip again James yeah and removed what do people say for Z as well see the band more frequently than I use the process okay okay Lauren it's been an absolute pleasure thanks for joining in on our uh silly game our silly question um but most of all thanks for coming and sharing us uh sharing with us your Vancouver tips um and around your views and how you got to become a Dev advocate so it just reminds me to say let's see if Lauren gets this this time have you watched Have you listened to this before do you know what we're gonna do I do you're looking worried no I'm so my brain is so flushy from doing the tech now I apologize it might go wrong then let's try it anyway right yeah um so thanks uh we'll see you next time uh until then I've been Russ I've been James and I've been alone and this is service ducks