everyone and Welcome to our online training defining transformation and how agencies can achieve it my name is Emily Jarvis and I'm the senior manager for events here at govloop and today I have the added pleasure of also being your moderator so thanks so much for joining me and a special thank you to our partners at service now for helping us put on this session so let's get right to it because transformation what is it it's a word that gets tossed around in government leadership meetings all the time but what does it actually mean is it about process improvements technology modernization Workforce changes all the above none of the above who who the heck knows well I know who knows and it's our experts and today they're going to help us by answering those questions but before we get to that I do have a few housekeeping items to go over with you all first things first if you're on Twitter please share what you are learning alongside us using the hashtag GL train we also have some great resources available for you on the console so make sure you check those out there's lots of great learning opportunities over there if you do need that closed captioning feature just look for the icon on the bottom right hand side of the media player that's where my face is showing up right now to get that accessibility of course we hope you don't have any technical difficulties but they can and do happen and if they do send us a message through that ask a question Tab and my colleague Maddie will make sure to get your questions answered and here's the secret friends it's in that same porthole where you can ask our experts questions so don't you dare be shy put your questions in early and often because that's what we're here for we're here to get to the bottom of your Most Wanted questions get those answered finally we are recording this training so check your inboxes tomorrow because we'll email you a link so you can watch the entire session on demand or send it along to one of your colleagues all right with all of that housekeeping out of the way let me introduce you to our speakers joining us are Susan little who's the director for the division of records and information systems for the centers for Medicaid and met Medicare and Medicaid services we also have Freddie Diaz who's the deputy chief data officer for the U.S department of Agriculture we have glorimar rappole ballet who is the director of product for the United States Digital Services in the office of the ex in the Executive Office of the President oh my goodness my brain today and last but certainly not least we have Jonathan album who is the federal Chief technology officer for servicenow uh thank you all so much for joining us and transformation as we said here at the top means a whole lot of different things so we're going to start off today by having all of our wonderful Seekers Define how they view transformation and Susan I'm going to start with you what is your go-to definition for what transformation means true thank you and good afternoon everyone um I would say um that for me and for my team at CMS um transformational change is really defined as strategic process change um so very strategically approached for the transformation process perfect for transformation look like to you or what does that mean yeah and thanks again for having me so I'd say for for me it's about building in my case better USDA or better government but for the future so it's not meant to be a fleeting exercise it's meant to be something that is long lasting and forward glorimar from Europe you're coming at it obviously from the Digital Services team what does transformation mean to you and how do you define it for yourself and your team uh first of all hello everyone and thank you so much for the invitation happy to be here um I agree that everyone has a different definition and we're starting to see that already here um so in the government setting for me transformation is about the people that we serve and how we can deliver better government services so that's the north star of government transformation the people that we serve must be at the center of everything we do and I really believe that while we are transforming government we must be intentional in making sure that we are transforming the way we serve demographics and communities that have been historically underserved and that we can serve them in Equitable ways so keep in mind that even when we have a common North Star serving the people transformation can look very different for each level of government and for each agency so that is why so it's so important to Define what transfer information is in your context in simple terms and I do have something more to add here so something I want to highlight is that transformation is not exclusively about technology you know some some people um you know have that technology Focus um when we talk about transformation I've seen friends I've seen organizations that rush to buy the latest and greatest technology or are migrating their systems from an old platform to the cloud without really understanding the needs of the people that they serve so uh many months or sometimes years later and many millions of dollars of public funds later it becomes obvious they didn't deliver there are no results we didn't solve any problems um and we didn't improve uh government services because we were not understanding the needs of the people I think that's so incredibly important um to be thinking about and it's definitely something we're going to get into as this conversation develops uh because I think all of us can agree that sometimes just buying something shiny and new isn't going to fix a bad process or um a bad program um that was not working properly in the first place all right Jonathan you've got the hardest job here because you already have three definitions of transformation and I'm not going to make yours be unique if it doesn't have to be but how do you think about it and how do you define it sure well again great to be here I think the the other panelists have started us off in a really strong way with their takes on it and I I see a little bit of everything they said in my perspective on transformation I always think about it in in sort of three phases one is understanding what you have now so you know what you need to change you know how does the work flow across the agency how does the data flow you know what is the process for getting the thing done today that Baseline is so important because they don't know what the Baseline is it's hard to know after you've quote unquote transformed if things are better right so I understand the Baseline and then when you have some mindshare around okay this is how it works well let's have the courage sometimes to change things so they work in a way that is going to provide that better service that glorimar was describing and that doesn't mean just the service to a citizen it could be a service to another federal employee or service to another Federal agency so you know what is the um future look like and then as you execute the project and you're measuring along the way to see that you're actually achieving change and you're achieving you know value for the technology or for the work you're doing now I think you have a sense that we've really transformed the way we get these outcomes the way that we provide a service the way um the way things work in our agency and we're more efficient or effective but if you don't have that Baseline up front it's really hard to be able to measure that and you know if if you're successful in measuring it and you can show the improvements then the last part of transformation for me is that going out there and telling the story about how you transform so you can get more people interested in the work you're doing and you can get more resources to do more change and more transformation it's a very virtuous cycle I think would do it right I love it for for me I'll just say the word transformation uh I've got a 10 month old and we're really into reading books right now and the his favorite is The Very Hungry Caterpillar and so it just makes me think of transformation uh is like a butterfly and metamorphosis coming together uh and making that uh work in government um as well which is truly remarkable so let's put this into context um and Freddie I'm going to start with you do you have a use case or an example of a transformation that you've seen um at your organization that can kind of help flush out your definition a little bit absolutely and I think it really Builds on you know the definitions we've heard so far um so while the use case I'm going to share is a little bit of a technology driven that's that's just the start of the story I think so um at the USDA um we have an Enterprise data platform and for us that was a really transformative event because prior to this there was no um Enterprise data platform and usda's various missions had to kind of figure it out on their own they all had their own way of of delivering this and you know what we were able to deliver is this platform that everyone can use common tool sets uh common framework common language and what that allowed us to do and this is where I think the really big transformative piece came in is since we're all using the same thing it really allowed us to invest in our federal data Workforce and really boost our organic capabilities and data science so that way we were we weren't just going out and buying uh like was mentioned before that shiny tool it was how do we enable the workforce to be able to use our platform and really deliver that for a better USDA either for USDA stakeholders external or even internal for uh for better decision making within the agency and for us that um that started before covid but covid really acted as an accelerant I think with a lot of people acted as an accelerator for us to really see how why a Enterprise offering was necessary instead of having to figure that out within usda's various missions across the board that's a very cool example and I think all of us could probably say uh covet accelerated some of this stuff uh but it isn't the only reason for sure that it is happening um but it's good to see that kind of push in that direction uh glorimar from your perspective um do you have a use case that you think would would help kind of illustrate your view on transformation yeah and actually I will use um a use case from my previous state level experience for for this audience so it's about the driver license renewal so in most cases yeah this is a service offered by the Department of Motor Vehicle or Department of Transportation in my previous role um with this use case we started the transformation journey of the DMV we studied the current process in place the Systems and Technology the federal and state policy I and of course again going back to what I already said like the needs and challenges of the people and the experience also of the DMV workers so we discovered that there were other related use cases that were critical to transform the driver license renewal to and for that to work in the digital world and some of those other related use cases were about giving and paying traffic fines so we were able to in summary you know we were able to simplify the experience of the people a process that could take hours and sometimes even more than one day people had to visit different government offices to get their driver license and pay their traffic fines um now it's something that you can do in a few minutes online from home without going to the DMV and also all traffic fines are digital from the beginning you will see well no one wants to see in traffic fine but you you see it in real time in your DMV portal and you can those fines immediately and before again like it took months for you to see your graphic find records because it had to be digitized it's an oldest delay because like all types of challenges when you had to renew your driver license because there were pending fines again so anyway in summary they saved hours of time to our people save millions of dollars to the DMV and the police department uh that they don't need to manage and store physical traffic fines um records anymore I'm on other things and now um this is um in the case of Puerto Rico uh more than two million people in Puerto Rico now use this system that is uh most of the population that is eligible to drive so it was a very successful transformation that again was just that starting point of transforming other DMV services that's a very cool example I'll say Maryland also has that digital ticketing um and someone's husband AKA mine got a speeding ticket the other day uh that came in the mail and I was very happy it wasn't on me uh because most likely it was mine but in this case it wasn't all right Susan tell us about some of the transformation efforts going on um at your organization absolutely you know I think all these examples um just show how much transformation is happening across the federal space and the state level as well um I know we've talked about how transformation doesn't have to be a technology example however I would say today there's always a piece of our mission and our program that we're doing transformation on that may touch on technology sure so at CMS you know we see ourselves as really the largest Health Care insurance agency in the world if you will and we believe in health care for everyone so as a government agency our stakeholders are very vast and represent the American people so the program that I manage at CMS is the records information management program and with that said um individuals in in my program have been dealing with transformation for a number of years now most recently we have a federal directive mandate from OMB and the National Archives the Mandate is the m2307 so that all federal information is transformed from prior existing analog paper-based processes and procedures to completely technological I.T processes so with regard to our transformation there are a number of things we have to look at to make sure that we can really address all of our stakeholders the internal stakeholders for our program's admission as well as the external stakeholders and in cms's case there are a number of workflows that are being addressed under my program the first one is really um to do a gap analysis is of the workflows for our records information management program and then to do a business process modeling and mapping of each of the existing as is models to show how the mapping will lead us to the the future 2B model of the program and as part of that transition and we typically say that we are building the airplane as flying on it at the same time that's that's kind of where we are in you know this field but we have workflows for example that include massive Warehouse uh filled with paper and part of our transformation is to basically remove the paper records that still require longevity and management to the National Archives the federal records Center and at the same time those paper records that have met their disposition we have destroyed them with the shredding process us that said all of the processes in place for our life cycle management are now being addressed in a electronic strategic information plan and framework so that our processes and procedures would apply for example in an authority to operate process in a process where we look at requests for decommissioning of I.T systems in requests for migration of data to cloud-based systems or also to data lakes in a data center perspective so with that said though all of that mapping internally affects our internal stakeholders and we've been very thoughtful about crafting or communication message not only for the staff who have changed as part of their jobs but in terms of our stakeholders whether those stakeholders are Attorneys at HHS or Department of Justice with active civil litigation or whether they are contractors who hold it data for us or if they are members of the public wanting to get uh specific records as part of the foia process so that would be like an a high level overview but transformation is very important to us with all of our information definitely in a transformation and I know you're coming at it from a different perspective but any sort of examples you would want to share with some of your government partners yeah of course uh so actually I don't think it's I think going last is great because all no the examples are so good you know it's spurring ideas in me and helping me to remember some things that I've worked on in the past and I'll just note to Freddie I don't we haven't really interacted before but I I was formerly the CIO for the Department of Agriculture and uh when I was there we didn't have the data platform that you described that came after I left and with a very strong team built that and the fact that covet could spur that kind of coming together of a very large complex highly Federated Department you know I think that that's a an incredible change that um they were able to do and then that's real transformation so I just note that you know listening to this I um I'm very proud of the team that was there that did that worked with a lot of them before I before I left but I'll note that the customer experience executive order that came from the administration um you know several months ago a year and a half ago you know that's I think really spurring uh transformative change in the way people experience interacting with their government and you know so often it's those kinds of experiences that change the way we think about government that can spur trust in government rebuild it where where it lacks and you know servicenow's been um you know essential to several different projects that have come out of that executive order one um I want to touch on because I do think it's a it's a really important transformation uh we work with the fish and wildlife service at the department of the Interior on their e-permits application and you know it's called the permits so that helps you understand it's electronic now but it wasn't always electronic for a long time if you needed a permit to do research or some other kind of activity in a national park or or Wildlife Refuge area that you had to complete that permit completely offline send in a paper check to pay and you had to wait for your permit to come back and you know we brought that uh process online using servicenow with uh the department with the fish and wildlife service and it's been a really transformative change people can now interact with their government in a way where their work life looks more like their real life and I think those are the kinds of things that people really notice and they think about and is Meaningful to them when you're thinking about it from a customer's perspective then you know the goal long term with fish and wildlife is to bring more and more and more permits on and make it such that program areas can bring on permits without having to go through I.T using low code capabilities and other kinds of you know pre-packaged um you know materials and and templates and things of that nature and you know that that makes it even more transformative because now the work is can get done in a different way the work can get done and not through the funnel of a CIO office or a contractor but you know in a in a program area using quote-unquote citizen development delegated developers utilizing low code in a way that we talk about as being really transformative so I I love I love the work we've done with fish and wildlife for a number of reasons but I do think you know the transformation aspect of it is really significant very cool all right I have a whole laundry list of questions for the four of you but I want to remind our audience that we're here to answer your questions so if you've been holding back feel free to throw a question into the Q a portal but glorimar I'm going to start with you I think one of the challenges often around the transformation modernization whatever work you want to put on it is that there's so many different opportunities and things to change and update but you can't actually do them all how do you think about prioritization when it comes to transformation initiatives first of all I love this question so establishing priorities and focusing on executing those priorities is one of the most important aspects of a successful transformation initiative else it will be very messy it's still messy but it will be very messy and hard to show meaningful results we all get excited we want to transform everything at the same time that will not work you know we need ruthless prioritization again else we will all be very busy but not focused and nothing will happen and I have seen this happen many times before so us and this is my perspective now as director of product at usds I want to highlight how critical the role of the product manager is to prioritize effectively at usds product managers lead some of the most complex and challenging transformation projects including some of the ones that were mentioned related to the um executive order for for customer experience and they are responsible for their prioritization efforts and building momentum and our focus on executing and our execution and delivering results through many obstacles so from a very high level perspective at usds we prioritize for the greatest good the greatest amount of people in the greatest need and we use a human-centered research and design approach to inform our prioritization process so we start our transformation initiatives with a discovery phase or a discovery Sprint so this is when we also make sure we understand again the needs of the underserved demographics that I mentioned before many organizations keep this step completely sometimes because we have no time for that we don't really understand we already know what we need to fix my recommendation do not do not please do not skip this step again it's one of the most essential steps in the transformation process this is the time we dedicate to understand the problems based identify challenges and the needs of all the people involved it's essential to prioritize so again to summarize identify the needs of the people that we serve and with this info have people with the right skill set like product managers leading the prioritization effort and then focus on execution of those priorities so Freddy if you are following gourmar's perspective on prioritization one of the keys here is you're going to need budget and you're going to need resources in terms of personnel Tech whatever the case might be sometimes that's allocated for you sometimes you have to get creative how do you think about sort of funding transformation effort absolutely I think I really want to build on on her answer because if you don't have a good idea of what their priorities are if you're not looking at it from the perspective of the customer getting funding sometimes can be difficult because you're getting funding for something that may not be an optimal priority for the organization so sometimes getting funding can be you know I've seen successes really in two ways one assuming that you have you know tried to get the requirements of your customers soon you've done all that leg work at some point it's going to be about really telling a narrative telling a story about what like when you look at transformation where are you looking to go what is the vision in the next uh whether it's three years five years what would you hope to deliver at the end and beginning with that end state in mind and going backwards so being able to say if we're able to deliver these things we're able to now gain these new capabilities close these gaps address these concerns and then say here's how funding can help along the way so that way we now have you know we're out we're kind of painting a picture and that Vision can be done in various ways sometimes it's aligning to strategic plans of the agency or Department in my case uh being in the in the data space for us it's aligning to the usda's data strategy as well as our I.T strategic plan and USDA data USDA strategy making sure that we're pointing to those big initiatives and then saying now that we have alignment on where we want to go now what will it take to get there and being creative not just on asking for money but also how you're asking for money and this is where you know leveraging um different funding opportunities for example for those of us in the FED space like the technology modernization fund as a potential Avenue but also other creative ways of trying to fund efforts whether it's through Partnerships in your organization so it could be that you're not the only one with the idea but someone else may already have the check that's already cleared so how do you partner with other arms of the organization to get your initiatives off the ground so really starting with that vision in mind that end State going backwards and then saying how funding can help you get to your various levels I love that find the person who already has the check I'm gonna keep that in mind uh for a whole host of uh ideas but I think that's it's really good advice across the board um they're Freddy and and how to sort of think creatively about the process so Susan if you've got your priorities you've figured out some funding Avenues now we've got perhaps and I don't want to speak for the group but I would say perhaps one of the biggest challenges of all which is getting everyone to do something differently um from a cultural perspective how do you get folks to buy into whether it's a new process or a new technology how do you get your team actually invested in doing things differently so that's a great question um transformation isn't something that will succeed if it's in a silo you know I think Freddie mentioned that the way to get things done is truly understand who the stakeholders are and to have Partnerships because of the Partnerships are kind of um overlap in our program initiatives can bring added value to each other into our programs so with that said we need to and what I've been doing at CMS is working on a Communications plan because the communications plan needs to tell everyone outside of our program what change what transformation has happened what does that change look like what is it where are we now and what does that look like in the future and then in terms of roles and responsibilities how does that communication plan address issues of changes in the resources like the staff who will be doing the work how does that communication plan address issues of individuals who might be let's say points of contact in different groups or components or how how does that communication plan address how the government puts uh contracts out to the commercial space for in my case information technology projects the communication plan at CMS we've looked at multiple ways of working on that we've wanted to have um trainings that are on the spot video trainings that are Snippets the way you might see them in YouTube or Tick Tock where they would address unique bits of information more traditional slide deck trainings to provide high level material communication outside of our community communication to groups who weren't necessarily part of our community to inform them about how we are transforming so I would say that how we talk about transformation and involving the staff who will be part of that transformation so we all speak the same language very key to this process think you're you're right Jonathan how many around priorities funding and then getting people on board well I would I start by saying if you're not thinking about all three of those aspects of your project or the transformation you're attempting to do you're likely to fail because they're all equally important and just on the priorities you know there's a lot of ways to think about what's most important but I love what I heard about look at the agency strategic plan look at an executive order look at what the secretary is saying there is a lot there you know for for those of us in the technology space or in the in the uh in the government Tech space or in the contractor community working government is hard but it's easy in the sense that all this information is public we can go and listen to Congressional testimony we can read the budget we can read the executive orders we should have a good sense of where the priorities are right so we think about the work that we're proposing or the work we're doing in government we should have a pretty good uh set of guidelines so it's it's out there so I think that the comment there is do the research do the work don't guess right you don't have to guess and then you know in terms of getting getting people on board you know Susan's describing in terms of communication plan is really is really key and I think it you know it has to go even further than that I've seen the most successful projects uh you know have literally years of socialization of these ideas government agencies don't change quickly and people who have been in agencies a long time don't change fast so there's an effort to continue to talk about these things get people on board it's not just a a one-time conversation and I think that's what I'm trying to say you have to continue to have that conversation it's not simple to say it was not sufficient to say it once and get and everyone's going to know it know that this is important and I think when you have that conversation it's also about making it important to to the group or the individual you're speaking to how does it impact you know what they care about what's their personal value in this conversation that you can tie your project to or maybe talk about it in terms of reducing risk or increasing program Integrity or there's lots of ways to shape the work we're doing so people see you know that they have a role in it and you know and I think if you're prioritizing right and you're making it important the funding piece doesn't necessarily take care of itself we know that budgets can can be challenging but every year there is there is money to do projects their money gets spent on things all the time and you know if you're making the business case and talking about alignment and you're talking about the value to the agency or to individual program manager or so on and so forth when when you rackets that rank all the projects at the end of the year and there's end-of-year funds or the technology monetization fund is looking at projects and you can make the case that you know this is this is the benefit and this is why and how it aligns you know it's not a guarantee but I mean you're more likely to get funding than a project that hasn't done that that works so I think there's a strong relationship between these between these elements and you know it's just a really good you know question and and perspectives provided to the audience in terms of how to think about their work in a way where they can actually have the resources to get it done I love it all right we are rapidly running out of time but I've got a ton of questions left so we're going to do these final rounds of questions here and Rapid Fire format and Susan I'm going to start with you with the next one I think sometimes when we talk about transformation and oftentimes it's true it feels really big you know we are changing um you know the way we input information or we're updating to Glory Mars perspective the driver's license example how how on an individual level can can things be transformative can you have a transformation project for yourself for your team or is transformation more sort of these big ticket items so to answer quickly you can use transformation for individual levels as well as you can extrapolate it to much larger Enterprise wide and um you know government levels uh an example very quickly of how transformation is done at an individual staff level so when when we have transformation we talked about the communication plan that's generally viewed as external to the transformation of the program that um is the one in question however for the staff who actually do the work from a supervisory point of view we need to work on making changes to their position descriptions that reflect the work change to look at the job series because in the federal government individuals are hired based on a job series to determine is the job series that that person is currently in sufficient for this future transformation to also look at how they're reviewed and the review qualifications that they're measured against and are those things also changed to reflect individual transformation we need to from a supervisory perspective look at those people resources to ensure that transformation is successful at the higher levels glorimar if I do all of these things um and I'm thinking through this process how do I measure if this is successful can I measure if this transformation effort is successful what are some metrics that you look at yeah well I think success will will really depend on the nature of the organization and the services offered um but I suggest we always have some metrics related to Service delivery again I have been talking about this I've been focused all the time and this can be outputs outcomes or impact metrics impact can be very abstract and hard to determine and measure for most organizations because there is no there's not always a clear line between the work you're doing and the long-term impact to the people and it takes longer to measure but you need to be intentional about measuring success um in your particular transformation effort so I'm not giving any specific example again but just saying yes it is important else it's like what are we doing here you know what's the transformation about so that would be my my quick uh answer there no I I think it's so true and um you know we had uh someone on from the state of Missouri a couple of years ago who worked in trash pickup so her her job was coordinating with residents to make sure that their trash was being picked up on time and she was like my metric From Success is not hearing from anyone um and so many organizations you're trying to solicit feedback right like you want to hear what your constituents are saying and she was like if no one's talking to me we're doing a good job so yeah you're absolutely right definitely that's a good metric and at the end maybe the long-term impact is that people have a better quality of life I don't know so it's harder maybe to see the connection between both but you have to measure something depending on your type of service yeah Freddie anything you would add to that sort of measurement or metrics conversation in yeah definitely you know it can be difficult um I'd say you know this is where on the I'm supposed to say the data stuff as the deputy CDO and I I think that's definitely something we should do uh but also you know in the storytelling aspects uh being able to like show where you've made an impact that's less about metrics and more about you know how you know like anecdotal examples especially ones that you can highlight that say we were not able to do this before so I think combining the two allows you to say whether this this is a success especially where it's difficult to measure progress then that's that's where getting anecdotal getting with uh success stories can be even more powerful than than before so Jonathan if you're listening to this whole conversation today which which we know that you are where do we go from here right because you could transform on transform on transform what do you expect to see and sort of the the next Evolution when it comes to you know government transformations oh I think you're on mute hmm I can't hear you my apologies I think that uh I I like the way you phrase your question because there is no um doubt that we're going to continue to be transforming right there's no it's a never-ending thing right because you know we're always trying to improve our agencies and our programs and the way we do our work and that's a really you know natural I think very healthy instinct My Hope for the future though is that you know these projects um and these efforts come to completion before we start the next one if I worked in government for a long time and you know very often government projects have uh you know lifespan of could be the CIO could be the administrator could be the secretary it could be the administration and we don't always set things up in a way where they're going to come to fruition all the great work we're doing in the executive order uh on on uh either cyber security or customer experience there's lots of great work happening um a new group could come in in the future and say we want to do different work and these projects that have been our focus and a priority like we just talked about suddenly they're not right so I'd like to make sure I'd like to see you know uh us have the discipline to finish the work we start or you know maybe conclude it in a way if there's something more important but it's not just a uh a rough ending you know that there is a very clear determination of the value we produced outcomes achieved things got better or they didn't sometimes projects don't achieve the results and you know it's okay if we recognize that and do better the next time but we're closing these things out and building on them as we do future Transformations and I recognize that the nature of government is uh of course political right and things will evolve over time but again I sincerely hope that the way things evolve uh Builds on all the work we've done we do have a good history in the recent past on uh you know I.T across administrations continuing to you know build but not fully right you know we could do maybe more there so in even inside an agency it'd be great to see the connectivity between efforts over time and be able to tell that longer term story because I think as we're you know out there telling our stories to the public um you know are about the stories about how government is doing good work for Citizens we're doing good work in support of uh you know the the life Journeys that we're talking about in the EO that we're making government easier and more accessible that we're we're building trust along the way because you know you build trust in little drops you can lose it in in buckets it's just one bad experience and you know trust has gone so people look at these projects we started they don't hear that they finished and I think that erodes trust and so it's just so much harder to have the government that we wanted to have people engaged in government and the outcomes so I'd love to be able to tell that transformation story over multiple administrations multiple uh administrators multiple cios so we can be very intentional about showing people how we continue to get better I agree with you wholeheartedly and we will definitely hope um and and work towards that because you are absolutely right sometimes it feels a little like priority whackable like you're hitting one down and another one pops up and you're like I don't I don't even know which way I'm supposed to be facing anymore um so that makes a whole lot of sense all right Susan final question over to you we've talked about a lot of things when it comes to transformation today what do you want attendees to walk away thinking about knowing um in this topic area I would say very quickly that they should understand that transformation is about the people the people who are doing the work or the people that we are providing services to and that's what transformation is many times we use technical uh Solutions or technology to provide that but it's about the people that would be my answer thanks Emily no thank you people at the heart of it I think we can all agree to that Freddie what should we be thinking about as we log off today yes I love that that answer about the people I would say you know to even build on that like you know we all seen dominoes fall you know it starts with one Domino dropping I think we can all be that single Domino to start that chain reaction and you know that those changes that will Outlast even our time in government so start now start small start today with transformative efforts I love this this about of course you're ready all know that I will agree that it's about the people the people that we serve the people involved and people originally need better government services so um just I mean transformation is hard it's complex but it can be done my formula is have a team with clear roles and a persistent Champion that can lead with empathy and tenacity through obstacles be clear on what you're doing and keep the message simple focus and prioritize and iterate and deliver results so there it is I love it I feel like that could be like a slogan for a bumper sticker or something all right Jonathan you said you liked going last before so let's see how you feel about it now yep so uh definitely it's about the people we serve and the people who work in government and I think if you're attempting a transformation it's really important that you're thinking about how you're going to measure those outcomes we've talked about that before and how you're going to show value how you're going to create value for those people so ultimately that's what it comes down to what did you do to make the agency the program The Experience better why why was the transformation a good use of taxpayer funds so be thinking about that the whole time you all have given us some great things to be thinking about as we log off today unfortunately though we are out of time I want to thank our four terrific speakers for sharing their insights with us today I love learning about all of your transformation efforts and I know our audience did as well I do have a few quick reminders before everybody logs off though first things first if you haven't go ahead and take a look at the resources that are in the resource center on the console there's lots of great learning opportunities over there so you're not going to want to miss out on a single one of those uh and this session will also be available on demand so if you want to watch it again or send it along to one of your colleagues who maybe needs a little nudge on their transformation initiatives by all means please feel free to send it along but on behalf of Guff Loop and servicenow I hope you enjoyed this session and as always we really up appreciate and value the work that you do thanks for taking the time out of your busy schedules to join us this afternoon we'll see you at our next training and have a great rest of your day bye foreign