all right we'll go ahead and get started welcome everybody to our Digital Services Forum by weekly call today we're going to focus on value stream management it's one of the one of the things that people were asking for in the chat over the last few months so we have a guest in here today to help us walk through some of that before we get started I want to go through and just remind everybody of what the Digital Services form is and then the resources out there for you to use in order to exploit some of the uh some of the sharing that we do here on the bottom there's a URL and it's I'll paste that URL as soon as we get done and everybody's in I'll paste that URL inside of the chat because so everybody has it but that URL will bring you into that little about screen in our community and that about screen will let you link up to the zoom sessions so if you have somebody that's interested that hasn't been there before that's a good link to give them because they can get to the zoo meetings here and register for whatever ones they want to they can also go to the home page which lets them see all the prior presentations along with any material that our presenters shared there's the YouTube playlist and then there's also a link to a shared instance and that shared instance is kind of in between states right now I killed the old one well but it's still there so a lot of people are still actually accessing the old instance so I'll put it on the community I'm going to put a link to the new instance up there and anybody who had passwords on the old instances they'll work on the new instance so we're moving it over to try to get a little bit better performance than we had before okay and a lot of the shared work that we have is on that instance so that's why we use it is so we can demo off that so this way if people are doing demos they want to do a little configuration they can do it on there so this way they don't have to send update sets to everybody and that's all the stuff we're using right now is those four main areas is where we share what we what we present here our vision is really to help everybody think about their digital transformation so a lot of what we talk about on the platform with servicenow is how do you configure the service parts of service now the service delivery so we're not talking a lot about itom we're not talking a lot about SPM like all those demos that you usually see we're talking about the core part of the platform of Service delivery and that's really what we focus on here that's different from other meetings our mission is to let these let our members Drive their own digital Transformations by bringing this knowledge back to their organizations and then we share as much as possible so if people got stuck on things that they could share and it's in an update set or it's a presentation used for internal Communications a white paper we share as much as possible to help get you there quicker and when we host it it's the whole EA team and I'm part of the Enterprise architecture team and the whole EA team is the team that brings content forward and shares it so we try to split it up so it's part servicenow and it's part the customer we try to get as that as much as possible today's could be more service now but sometimes it goes that way and our main ways of delivering this information back to you is in the two-hour meetings right the two-hour meetings we have sometimes we've done knowledge presentations where we've had panels together before and we've even done like half day workshops where we went in and built some csdm models together in teams but our primary way is this two two-week meeting is the one that we like to keep consistent right now today's content I just want to set the content up a little bit I always show whenever I do my csdm workshops and a lot of you have been in those whenever we do the workshops we always start with a slide like this because we talk about the most important part on this model or all the people around the outside you're trying to unify a group of people and how we do that in the boxes right that comes later but a lot of people forget to look at these so these people coming together are going to have different things that they need and they're going to have different people that are stakeholders of the information that they present so we have to really be cognizant of that as we're looking at this and a few weeks ago we took a look at the tool chain right if you look at the whole tool chain as you build these Services it gets really complex because there's a lot of things and a lot of people use a lot of different tools so the tool chain is is this one here and this is just one example I really like this screen because it has so many of them on there and it really puts the problem in your face right there's all these tools we have to figure out which ones we use to show which people and this is your task and it's really difficult we're going to talk about in the next few weeks is we're going to focus on this section here the Enterprise architecture section and one thing we're going on today is the value streams but also a lot of people asked about business capabilities and so all these different tools along the way we're still supporting the delivery of that digital service or the digital product or the application depending on which organization you're in we're still supporting that delivery uh but it's like I said from all these different perspectives and then all these different people that are bringing those perspectives okay so today we're going to try to we've been poking around this tool chain the whole time and today we have a guest with us uh Ian he's from an architecture team but in a different country I'll let him introduce himself but I'm going to hand it over to Ian and he's going to take us over he's going to take us through a lot of the work that they're doing on digital product value streams and then what that means for the platform so he and I don't want to steal any more of your thunder I'll hand it over to you and let you take share and um any questions along the way it's the usual just put them in the chat and we'll try to stop Ian where we can and bring those questions in thank you John you're welcome let me stop by sharing my screen sounds good and I'll switch this here so thank you everyone for joining um as you previously heard my name is Ian but before I start let's get the formalities out of the way safe Harvest uh statement you've probably seen this a few times uh for those who might not have seen this uh it basically says do not make any future uh do not make any buying decisions based on future statements meaning anything that's in the roadmap and is not usually guaranteed to to go to production but everything that is is in production or available today on our platform that's obviously available to you so as I said before my name is Ian I work in the Enterprise architecture team in emea so basically what I would call a branch of of John and and his team focusing on accounts in emea that I think that are headquartered in the mayor but that also means in many cases when I get involved that these organizations are very multinational so uh yeah it's it's very common for us to also work with colleagues in the US in Asia um yeah AS Global as you would expect my background um is in technology technology operation specifically speaking I was a platform owner and a customer before I joined service now um besides that I also did security operations I did identity and access management HR you see the list on the screen um if it's okay with everyone I'll switch off my camera and bring it back later so let me quickly figure that out quickly okay it's not working but okay I guess we'll just keep it oh here you go okay okay so with that being said before I also start I want to acknowledge uh the rest of the team um this is not a topic uh that I'm working on on my own there is a huge team behind me very skilled coaching bouncing off ideas uh each with their own specialty or let's say their own experience so behind everything I talk about is is actually a team of people bringing this up and and really trying to to create thought leadership trying to help our customers think about these topics much more effectively and much more uh must move from an end-to-end perspective moving on this is the agenda we have today so I'll start with what a value stream is perhaps very trivial for most of you um what is a digital product value stream according to how we see it and how we're approaching the topic um why is it important the challenge is faced and yeah where do you start on service now what um I mean sorry our goals and then where do you start on service now so what that what does value stream management digital product value stream management mean on service now if you decide to start tomorrow as as John mentioned uh previously if you have any questions please do feel free to to write them in the chat I will try and make this as interactive as possible the session is for you as John said in the beginning so I'll do my best to cater to any any let's say diversions or side topics you might want to have in regards to value stream management so yeah I mean let's start with the with the trivial what is value stream management um I I pasted the Wikipedia definition on the screen um I should have asked before does everyone see my screen I've been in a situation where yes yeah I should have asked that right in the beginning apologies on my side so yeah we have Wikipedia's definition on the screen but I actually prefer this definition here and it simply says if you have a product or a customer there is probably a value stream or most probably a value stream behind that the challenge lies in seeing it this comes from a book I haven't read it myself and I learned this from one of my colleagues learning to see value stream mapping to create value and eliminate uh so that's where we're starting from right we're starting from the customer we're starting from how the customer interprets the value they get from your organization and everything behind that that is required to offer that value and I think it goes without saying that yes it can be very complicated um and we will be looking at that today as we go through this presentation so going deeper into this what is a value stream I thought let's let's start with servicenows um let's say approach or let's say view on this and I think this is a good a good slide I can I can use to explain that at the bottom you see the first layer and as we go higher we will I will try and explain uh what what it means to us so what does it mean from a customer perspective to increase your maturity in in regards to value stream management what would you need to add or how would you need to approach these topics as you as you say try and solve them within your organizations the lowest one is the one you probably see the most or let's say the one that is most common where it's very developer Centric it's about planning it's about building uh obviously in this case this time to value is also very important um but it's these in in this type of in on this layer of maturity what we usually see is organizations that are very developer Centric right and and that might work for example if you're in a startup really uh yeah I mean you're starting from afresh you have to do things quick you don't have the luxury of setting everything up completely this is absolutely valid but what we usually see is with time Oh wrong with time it there is usually needs to to increase the maturity and I'll explain as we go through what what the motivation is in the beginning as I mentioned it's all about efficiency and productivity right and it's about getting things done as soon as possible as quickly as possible but then as maturity increases and in this case on the second level you see it's also about operational metrics and trying to quantify the operational side of things now some start on level two some might be stuck on a level one again it's all about your organization's ambition and what you want to achieve well let's say how closely you want to work with the business to support them on their business needs now operational VSM in other words I sometimes describe it as devops as you probably already know it um but then it doesn't stop there what we usually see with our customers is there might be an expansion of priorities so for example servicing is one of those topics that obviously shouldn't be handled on an island within the organization it should be a team collaboration with everyone else providing the technology so with many of our customers we see a need to make sure that whatever the devops side of things is doing is aligned with the servicing side or let's say vice versa servicing is aligned with the devops side of things to make sure that whatever the developers are pushing over the fence towards production is service in a manner that complies with the value of of the organization so servicing is still very important on the other hand or let's say on the left side we also have prioritization um that becomes obviously a bigger topic or let's say is a big topic with bigger organizations making sure that priorities are funded uh to to completion uh becomes extremely critical but actually before I spent too much time here I want to move on to the fourth level which I think is where things get very interesting and for us the fourth level is how we see the feedback loop the the from ideation to servicing and the outcome and connecting everything back to ideation to make sure that um all activities are oriented on data or facts and not just intuition right um but as we go along I'll talk more about that but I just thought for one second I would I would give you a bit of our perspective of how we look at digital product value stream management and how we listed the challenges we see um in the market as we try and help our customers so I mean why why even I mean most of you have gone through multiple phases whether it was Ito whether it was this or that there's always something out but why now digital product value stream management well first of all value stream management has been around for a long long time it might not have been that known across all Industries uh my understanding is it's it's very very well known in the manufacturing Industries but it's not something new and it's simply in my opinion one way of well yeah one way of trying to align with the business and trying to work better as teams are within the organization and and what you're seeing in front of you is a reason why we believe digital product value stream management is becoming so important so what you're seeing at the moment on the screen is let's say the traditional perspective of how organizations have approached these topics but then as they become more well I hate use this word agile or as they become more business oriented or as they adapt to the macro [Music] macroeconomic conditions it's important that the whole business and I.T evolves and what we're seeing is what you're seeing on the right on the screen where teams are becoming more important making them more autonomous trying to give them more this decision power in whatever they do in terms of let's say plans right we know that as as Things become more volatile within the the markets it's very important to approach many of these Topics in an iterative Manner and not just the yearly planning that perhaps within a month already becomes unsuitable or even in terms of risk right measuring risk and making sure risk is part of each topic as the business goes through through it and and as you develop your technology towards the the target maturity is also becoming something that's very important now at the bottom there's a sentence that I personally really really like some of you might have already heard about it is from Steve Jobs and and he talks about starting with a customer in this case the customer experience and then working your way back towards the technology and I think that's actually a good uh approach if you're looking at Value stream management right where is the value for the customer and in this case a customer is not just an external regular customer obviously a customer could also be an internal customer if you're offering internal HR internal Services whatever it might be hrit security but on the other hand the context of how those services are used towards that external customer is very con is very important in making sure that you're maximizing your contribution to the business is part of this this topic now it's not only about people and culture it's also about technology and process and in this case we're also seeing a transition or let's say a change in culture in making sure that those traditional aspects like EG when you build something it doesn't have to be perfect right going with that mvp culture or mentality and then reiterating to improve it in future releases is for one example of how we're seeing these things change and other things like um I mean I already spoke about agile before I already spoke about customer value but it's all to me all of this is about doing more with less faster right that's the simplest way I can explain it the business is expecting uh the is expecting technology departments to understand how they think more better than ever and it's important in this particular context to make sure that the line between business and technology is minimized and that the business impact is maximized as much as possible so moving on what are the challenges uh we see right and I took one example out of the state of value stream management report this is usually provided by the VSM Consortium you should absolutely check it out the the link is at the bottom and I took this one one um let's say overview to to show you what the feedback is from from the market right this was done in a survey where members of the Valley Stream Consortium gave their feedback and two things I want to pull up in this particular case is number one the no resources for this so basically this is feedback where representatives of organizations explained why they have difficulty adopting by history management and having not having insufficient resources seems to be one of the topics that uh comes up and as you can see in this case resources equals skills budget and time on the other hand we have the 17.8 answer which was a stent answer which was we have many other active change programs so I mean I won't go through all of them but I think when I look at this it at least for me translates a bit into what I see in in the field when I'm trying to work with customers and supporting them throughout these topics what how I would have described it is silos right and and it's not the only thing but it's one of those things where I think in many occasions um especially in in situations where there's a lot of pressure from the business people are working on multiple topics at the same time it's I often see situations where uh yeah it's distracting right and and it's it's sort of a topic where like I have 20 things on my table what do I focus on and now comes VSM and and and so yeah it's it's it's it's one of those things where I feel leadership needs to prioritize right and more importantly leadership needs to make sure that culturally speaking these the existing silos can be broken up uh what we see is usually when we get involved many of these departments are very used to the ways they work and in in in in some cases there might be some hesitance to open up and to really show and and connect what they do to the rest of the organization so you're seeing multiple reasons here but I'm mentioning this specific Silo uh challenge because this is one of the ones I see the most when I'm working in the field I'll post for a second because I can't tell if we have questions or not uh let me see I think I think we're good uh there was just so far just a comment so okay so moving on um why why are we what's our goal right why are we doing this um it starts with um helping our our customers in multiple ways the first one is driving business value value streams while helping the business focus on outcomes and reducing costs so this is more of an alignment perspective in making sure that these topics receive the importance they deserve from your sea level so we're trying to um explain or show how important and how impactful this topic can be if done right and connecting all these topics together in this case can also increase transparency which is usually in the interest of the business the other part is obviously what I mentioned in the beginning maturing towards maturing within the material maturity models we spoke about before again if if the goal is not necessarily to approach those topics end to end then that's fine it's not when we don't do this just for the sake of doing it there has to be a desire at the end of the day to have that transparency and and to really try and find those bottlenecks within the organization that are causing perhaps some challenges um behind those value streams the other part is about being specific to the different personas if some of you have seen the blueprint you will see that it has quite a number of personas on it this is again to reiterate that the different personas have different ways of working and that is absolutely fine we service Now does not aim to change the way people work it's about improving the way they work without necessarily um how can I say um Reinventing what they do and so the experiences they get through the the system whether it's working through service now or working the tool of choice while consuming data from servicenow is very important and last but not least really enabling teams to still work in those tools of choice or let's say tools of preference but not compromising on that end-to-end approach when it comes to having visibility into what's going on and how technology people process is supporting the business value towards the customers so I would say these are the four main goals we have um I'll quickly jump to this one here and this is what it's all about now today we haven't planned to go through the whole blueprint in detail um this is something we'll probably do in a separate session but if some of you have been wondering okay so what's this about what's this value stream management about this is a topic that we've been working on for a while and in the last few weeks we released a blueprint this is a summarized version of that blueprint and I will provide a link for those who are interested in accessing the actual group print but this on a high level quickly shows the topics we're looking at at the moment in the context of digital product value stream management now every color you see here uh yeah it's potentially someone's career right um and it might have been that they've spent quite a number of years working on these topics and this is the whole art of this topic how do you bring all these various topics together plus all the various Integrations that are usually required to make sure that these processes work as they should and and this starts on the left from ideation as we were talking about before all the way to the business value on the right now as I said at the beginning we won't have time to go through each box uh so to say to explain what we do and how the value transforms as it goes through the value stream but if this is something that might interest you then it's definitely something we can look at for the future I'll post for a second I um any questions I see something in the chat there's one from Don in there can I understand that the control for VSM and it for it is questions Plus data by role as the control for ITIL SS uh don why don't you come off and ask that reading it yeah yeah yes please sure uh the idea is that with Idol the idea is that service strategy is answered with continuous improvement with with data with context so I'll have my record my business requirements and service strategy I get the results later on where there's I compare that to my uh requirements to say you know job well done this stuff that's included in the Oreo cookie was correct and what you're saying is with the value stream or it for it story that you'll provide questions by role which will have answers to it in the same in the light of the VSM interface or tool is that what I'm seeing or hearing um so I I think I understood you but if I don't just correct me afterwards um yes and no um there is a perspective where I see I see two perspectives in in your question there is a perspective of the roles within the value stream that are actively responsible in many cases and and really call to that value stream and in that context I think you'd be right um because in many cases they do have those uh let's say continuous iterations as you were you mentioned the the example is did we actually produce what we said we will or what we wanted to do so there is that perspective but that there is also the supporting perspective where you might have security uh being a supporting role within that particular value stream but that's it did I answer your question yeah yeah you're nailing it the idea is that that in the same way that you can use value stream management to say this is what I expect my story to give and this is the explanation the control is the proof that you actually got what you envision with the value stream absolutely and this is what for me what I meant with with in the beginning I talked about you know um using data to to to to validate intuition uh I I briefly showed I didn't really talk about it I just showed it I think that's that is very tightly tied to what you're just saying in many cases when you when you when you have that beginning process where you're making assumptions we believe if we do ABCD this will be the results right once it gets out there to the customer and the value can start to be consumed but as we all know in many cases yeah those assumptions could be wrong and you might have actually even delivered what you actually planned so if there was a checkbox somewhere yes you did but the value wasn't as wasn't integrated as you expected so dude that's that's basically what I was trying to say at the end of the day yes there's an aspect of we need to ship something and so we're aiming for this release to do that but there's also the aspect of did it actually um achieve what it was supposed to do did we see our NPS go up do we see whatever I don't know for example registrations happening faster or not falling off for example so I don't know if I'm complimenting what you said but you're nailing it that's great that's the story we want to hear the idea is that that value stream management provides an opportunity for the business to quickly see that not only this is the value that we're aspiring to but this is the control this data and context is the answer to my business questions so that's it perfect thanks thank you any other questions okay so I'll just move on um don't have lost track of time so let me quickly look at my watch Okay so yeah what happens then I mean let me let me quickly go back and then I'll move on forward so you bring so if we look at this in a servicenow context first of all one thing I want to mention is in many cases when I get involved it might not necessarily be the case that the customer wants to exchange everything that happened in fact that almost never happens in many cases when we get involved and as you're looking at the screen you see that there are different Tools in it and in many cases they might be very very happy with a set of tools in a certain area and maybe less with other tools in another area but I think it's important to mention that for us it's not just about let's say making sure that the value stream works on service now but it's also about the Integrations with those tools to make sure that if there's data from the value stream that we need to push back to some of those tools because perhaps they fulfill a certain objective within their space within the domain that that is also covered so this is not just about pulling data from those tools and you know we do everything in service now and that's it where servicenow it works in such a way that if there is a reason to push that data back and orchestrate that tool in a specific context then that is already implied with this particular overview now moving on once you bring all these topics together right and this is where this slide comes in it's I mentioned the beginning it's about visibility it's about understanding you know where the bottlenecks within my value stream how am I contributing value to the business what is the business expecting of me and what are the let's say constraints that I might have be it cost be it time be it whatever it is so at the end of the day as we were talking about the rules once we call in that those different pieces of data into that context of a product and in this case because I know I'm speaking to people who know cstm very well in this case product at least for me would holistically mean a service and on the planning side it could be a business application people whatever is taken whatever whatever components are required to manage or maintain that service so holistically from from ideation all the way to the service side of things and in this case for a digital product owner it's extremely important to not just see what their various teams are working on when in the context of that product but also how that product is performing on the operation side so having that end-to-end view in in one let's say well it's actually three um screens I'm talking about digital product my digital portfolio management um is very useful and it it brings in context from different um let's say sources so I'll give you an example if if you are doing value stream management and perhaps you might only be focusing on security operations right in the context of what I'm saying you would expect to see for example security instances you would expect to see um vulnerabilities um or whatever else is covered by your security organization on the other hand if you add a risk perspective to that security operations data now we we we're able to quantify what that what that um what those vulnerabilities and incidents mean to the business you know what are we what are these incidents incidents jeopardizing on the business side in terms of the service provided and and whatever is being attacked or if it's in terms of vulnerabilities what inherent risk is included within that service and and you know what needs to be done to minimize that risk to an acceptable level so it goes back to what I was saying before if looking at this data in the context of one department is good but looking at it in the context of multiple departments can exponentially increase the value of the data and really support the decision makers to make sure that whatever they do is aligned with the business wants and and is really in well not just what the business wants but also is done in a timely manner as the business expects now I also wanted to touch this is just an extract of Integrations we have obviously there's many more and some of you might have heard that we introduced RPA functionality which obviously gives us even more possibilities in terms of integration I don't really want to focus on that too much today but I do want to focus on is one second let me quickly activate the screen what I actually do want to focus on as this is the Digital Services forum is the csdm perspective right and for me this is potentially one of the most critical parts of value stream mapping and and looking at topics in a value stream uh context now again I don't I think I don't have to preach to the choir uh I'm sure you you all understand what the potential of csdm is but I quickly want to talk about it in the context of VSM to to to reiterate how important this might this this this usually is when we when we work with our customers so what I'm showing you in front of you maybe you've seen it before this is my interpretation of csdm right and John spoke about this briefly before he handed up to me uh in the beginning cstm is about helping teams uh processes uh data work better together right I usually call it the United Nations of data uh and the reason why I call it that is similar to uh you the the real United Nations you have different countries right coming together to try trying to achieve something higher than than their own Department right something more impactful than what their Department can do alone this is the way I see csdm in a similar manner you have all these disciplines from Enterprise architecture to devops all the way to I.T governance each discipline is valid on its own but bringing them together and bringing the data together in the context of a service product however you're looking at it is what makes it extremely powerful and this is very very this this applies just the same for Value stream management and moving on I'll skip this I want to go to this so when we work with our customers what um this this is one way I can visualize how how I approach the topic if you look at the bottom we have the data backbone with csdm this is what I just mentioned in terms of how do things fit together how does data translate from from you know technology CIS to to Business Services Technical Services and even at some point in terms of planning business capabilities on the other hand there are the supporting processes we also talked about uh just a few minutes ago plus the value stream that that basically sticks these processes together to to create visibility behind that value now this is where our products come in and obviously in this case uh there can be situations where the customer has a different tool and and is happy with that tool that is part of the conversations we have how do we make use of existing Investments uh how do we maximize existing Investments but making sure that we can help the customer um yeah create the value stream service now and and and join all these topics that that go across the organization um on the right you also see the the different Cloud providers that that we support some a bit better than others but we have basic support for for I believe all six that you see under on the right and what I wanted to mention here and you've probably heard this from a csdm perspective is think big start small right and what I mean with that is yes you might be looking at the whole value stream and how everything fits together from beginning to Value but on the other hand you do not have to boil the ocean you could you can select I know two three four critical business products or services and and and start there right visibility usually in this context even in the beginning even when you haven't necessarily established full transparency on how that value stream Works in my experience the value or let's say the improvements start propping up very quickly uh even if you're not done so it's not about necessarily um you know doing it perfect it's about starting and and building that culture to be able to to work more let's see more efficiently and more collaboratively with other teams and when I say that I mean that from a process perspective and from a data perspective in the csdm context I'll take a pose um any questions so far okay so to finish off because as I said uh before we we want planning to go into the details of ASM in this specific session what I do want to share with you towards the end is is this overview so this is the blueprint I was talking about before um we will provide the presentation uh to you so if you cannot scan the QR code right now don't worry about it you'll have access to this document there is a blueprint you can download for free it's in PDF form it basically intends it shows how servicenow products fit together in a VSM context that is what you're seeing at the bottom with the different um colors these these Solutions are obviously modular so if you work with servicenow you probably already know that but on the other hand on top we also have the csdm perspective which is represented by the two layers you see at the top and the different stages that data let's say the life cycle of the product goes through towards the value so I highly recommend you check it out if you haven't already seen it and obviously if you have any questions do not hesitate to to ask on the left we we published a Blog article that is um let's say accompanying the blueprint so you might find some useful information there too please do check that out also and yeah I mean John for now I'm I'm looking at the time and I'm wondering probably it's it's probably a good time to to take a break and and do a q a or or what do you think sounds good yeah so questions when you look at the value stream itself is there a value stream owner and then there's individual owners underneath the value stream is that how you see it is there ownership of the value stream level or is there ownership of the individual process level and it's more of a group so I'll I'll I'll speak up my own experience so it's definitely not uh it's a representative of the globe holistic companies around the world but in my experience the the value stream owners are usually on the top at the top meaning they have an umbrella function looking at at their value stream being served by different teams so the ownership in my experience from what I've seen is usually from the product owner perspective but then there is a certain type of ownership from the bottom but it's slightly different and what I mean with that is yes you might have digital product owners owning the value stream but you might still have a head of portfolio management or um ahead of cloud Excellence for example or I don't know the season for example so that ownership from a supporting perspective might still apply so the ownership is not just in one place but I think it's it's just a different type of ownership one that is more I mean for for security organization for example it's about efficiency and scale right you're supporting perhaps multiple hundred maybe thousands of product owners and making sure that you're pushing data that they need to know and and and and monitoring what they're doing their ownership is more reporting how things are generally speaking on the other hand for the digital product owner they're very focused on their value stream and their products so what they'll report on is really as you can imagine specific to what they do so that's that's the way I would interpreted yeah it's almost like another portfolio that because you can use a bunch you're basically grouping another group of services together right to deliver that value stream absolutely yes absolutely I just want to submit I just want to add to that because that's that's been a kind of a debate in in higher ed um to some extent like do value streams especially in the context of ITIL 4 that really pushes the value stream uh do value streams have their own owners and I'm hearing what you're saying about you know multiple owners within the value stream but then I hear also conflicting priorities on what what gets the focused on on which part of the value stream right you know so I think it's hard to you know and we could have hundreds of value streams depending on how we Define them you know so I think we really fall back to our product owner you know owning part of that value chain and then you know our service owner you know maybe being there now service now is calling it maybe the solution owner right so there's there's some struggle with like assigning those roles and really making it uh manageable yeah yeah that's that's a very fair comment and and for me the way I look at it is I mean if I look at if I look back at when I was a customer right and I owned service now was a service that I provided to my customers internally I think what made the difference for me is and it was a bit in the direction you're talking about I I got the power to make decisions within a certain constraint and it was very large right I could do quite a lot obviously that came with responsibility so it's not like I could go crazy about that but basically what I mean with that is that gave me freedom to really you know adapt or let's say change priorities within my value stream depending on what the fit depending on the feedback I was getting from my customers so there might have been cases where the chro might have changed the priorities and said look we need to do we need to get this done quickly because there's an audit coming in this needs to be done then that allows me to shift resources and really maximize where I think I can make the big impact so to your point with the ownership I mean I'm I'm and I'm biased I'm a fan of obviously minimizing ownership and really giving Clarity of who's the owner and giving them the power to make those decisions but I think we also have to understand or empathize with the fact that in large organizations it might not be an option it might be too risky um and and you might need uh I don't know how I mean in German we would call it a 4i principle meaning you need sort of like it's it's almost intentional that you have two owners so that if someone drops the ball there's someone else who might pick it up and at least notice that the ball was dropped so it's one of those things where I have a personal preference but I also understand and why there is this let's say challenge as we speak yeah it's almost like a big business goal that everybody's driving towards or someone something that somebody owns delivery of right it's I could see both working absolutely hearing about the product owner field on the product and service now you said hundreds or thousands try hundreds of thousands of products absolutely right yeah and every one of them for us has a product owner every single one of them now a lot of those might be inconsequential products you know because everything that servicenow pulls in are just you know servicenow Discovery or Integrations with other sources is a potential product and when you then count the content management team right then you have publisher part numbers of a particular product and it could be you know 25 125 different publisher part numbers for one particular product servicenow Express is still a product in this product table and service now service now snap servicenow uh utils right these are all products they all have product owners or potentially have product owners if you're going to manage it that way so the question then becomes in your diagram of digital portfolio management where you see product owner with an emphasis on the backlog features releases defects and bugs okay so all of those would relate to some product that you want to manage but uh are you expecting you know these 100 potentially hundreds of thousands of product owners to Bubble Up and to this one to many or many to one via the value stream and the value stream if many value streams have different product owners and then you have 20 or 30 products in one value stream then at the value stream level who owns it yeah we've we've been having a lot of debate too over over digital product versus product and there's a lot of different definitions for digital product floating around right now which is causing a lot of confusion and um that I think that has to be sorted out we were on the open group talking about that for over an hour on the last few meetings and just trying to figure out like how do we how do we come to terms with the fact that that is there's a digital product right like the laptop's not a digital product right it has to have some some group of people responsible for some source code or some configuration according to the open group right in order for it to be a digital product versus a product well just looking looking at that from a servicenow perspective business application as a business owner and an I.T application owner if you choose to leverage those two out of the box roles fields on the business application form that business application consumes the app service the app service is dependent on by the offering the app service is basically supporting the servers or the servers or supporting app service the servers have software the software has a product the product has a product owner so the business app is one person that potentially have multiple application Services it consumes those are all supported by infrastructure and that infrastructure has software and that software as products and then you have multiple product owners all supporting that app service rolling up to that business owner if every single product has a product owner that works but if you're not managing the product owner at that level at that lowest level then it's sort of all unravels right again it's product versus digital product too which I think there's going to be some differences there yeah I always suppose the digital product would not be as granular yeah yeah I definitely think that's the case okay thanks definitely an area we got to sort out though Lou because that's one of those things like we talked about minimal viable product on the chat a little while ago it's one of those ambiguous terms that there's 15 definitions when every time we say digital product everybody's thinking something different yeah but in service now there's only one product on our field yeah all right cool you definitely got to straighten that one out so so John if if there's no other questions I'll hand it off but I'll hand it back off to you I I think I'm a bit early but better earlier than late so yeah yeah that's awesome thanks so much for getting a start on this I think it's uh it's an ongoing theme that we're definitely be working on and I'm going to share a couple of things that that are going on around this and it's going to be a little disjointed but it'll uh give you guys some things if you want to look at them for next time all right I should be sharing my main screen now all right going back to the common service data model I want to kind of tie some of the things that that Ian was talking about here with what some of the things we'll be doing over the next few weeks so what Ian talked about today the value streams even though they're not represented as like directly in the common service data model they would more than likely be up here in this design domain and this is a domain we haven't spent a lot of time on except maybe with the exception of the business applications right which is more of your compliance position up in that design domain now we're talking about value streams there's information objects here things that Architects would typically be involved with maintaining the record for an Enterprise Architects versus some of the platform Architects or application architects now if we look at that what we're we've been kicking around a little bit here is what do we offer in that area of the action the business architecture right like if you say hey I want a reference architecture that's another thing that means a ton of different things right it could be a reference architecture for sap and then it you know includes a lot of integration strategies and things like that so we've been looking at on the EA team is specifically an architect that sits here and and works on business strategy so here's a lot of things like people have been asking for on the Forum uh business capabilities these value streams I think are a really good idea because usually the that business EA is somebody that's involved in defining that value stream right those those value streams that stretch across the business so we've been looking for like how do we provide our customers uh in Industries with a reference architecture in this domain and we've been tasked with that too that come up with a capability model that somebody from education can take and drop in the capability table and start using or somebody from government could drop into the table and start using because there's not a lot of work being done up there so how can we get everybody started and we spent a lot of times in these other domains we talk about strategies or specific domain areas right these other Architects but we don't spend a lot of time up in this green area and it's interesting Gartner's perspective or Foresters perspective on this rather where they say if you're an EA you should spend more than 50 percent of your time in one of these quadrants if you try to divide your time up and say 25 25 25 you're not a good EA so it's interesting to hear that presented where they say you have to focus on one domain and spend fifty percent of your time in one one of these four or else you you won't really have an identity as an Enterprise architect so I'm going to relate those to uh APM in particular Enterprise architecture workspace absolutely this is APM this is where APM focuses um and then it's it's gonna take a lot of the things when we start talking about TPM and all those it's going to bring up some of these other domains where we start attaching more of the technology architecture right to the business architecture so those four quadrants must represent in the upper left the application portfolio in the lower right the technology portfolio yeah so the application the application compliance position like the business app table that sits squarely in this area right but then when you say now we're going to bring up application Services right then that drops down into these areas to pull data out of that domain so that just like the csdm right where it said that that line across the domains that goes down into the into the application Services I think that that moves out of this quadrant that's the way I see it anyway um thank you you're welcome now in order to represent that quadrant I've been doing some research and where it's landed me is with um I don't know if the business architecture Guild so there's this group of people that have been together for about eight years now and they focus squarely on this domain and they have a reference architecture for this domain and the core things in that domain uh in the reference architecture rather is the capabilities the organizations the information objects and the value streams so value streams are core and the value streams are related to capabilities right so all these all these get related in their meta model so if we look at a particular model and I work mostly in government but if we look at a particular model that they represent it would be um I'll show you one in government real quick and then right so in government they maintain this huge reference model where there's governments from all over the world that come together and they say what are the capabilities that we need to deliver as Government and they have all these capabilities in here and um and what there's 2 000 of them but they're they're all at different levels so they're nested at different levels now the way they flush out in um in terms of nesting is there's there's 54 and it's a reference architecture and so the expectation with a reference architecture is that you're going to delete some stuff right you're not going to have you're not going to use everything in there but it's supposed to be comprehensive for all governments so this is a top level these 54 things are what they come up with over the last five years in defining this reference model these are all the business capabilities that we need for for government and then if you drill down on like case management right there's going to be some second level things that you need to do to manage cases so this will tie back like case matching to a constituent that's in a public sector Digital Services for servicenow or case matching to Human Resources is that would be HR so these capability models are specific to Industries and that's what we're trying to get now so we have a bunch of Architects working on different Industries and then how do we provide that to our customers so when they don't have anything they can go to they can come to us and get something started to start working with so just real quick and I know we're almost out of time here I'm going to show a an example like if we go down and Lou I know you guys just purchased the EA workspace right so one of the things that we would provide is if you do sign up for the guild we would be able to give you a basically an export so that you can import these capabilities into your EA workspace and then I can start doing things like okay infrastructure management infrastructure design uh how do I go there and then attach an application to that to that infrastructure design or multiple applications right so it's it's to get you started with the business capabilities area and then the last thing the EA Guild has is they start mapping to Value streams as well so they'll map the capabilities to Value streams so over the next few meetings uh people have asked for a little bit more of this so we'll start talking about some of the actually industry value streams versus the product delivery value stream like Ian talked about today so these are some of the examples that they have in the guild right what do we do to acquire coverage or what do we do to determine eligibility what do we do to you know there's all these different things that you would do for Value streams um inside each of the different Industries so just to let you know if you are in an industry reach out to your EAS because there's somebody working on this and we want to hand you something back so that you can augment what you have or or at least put something in those tables that you can start speaking to and using right and I know we're about out of time here so there was a question there uh how does this skilled artifact differ from apqc and my answer for that and I'm kind of new at uh the bizarre Guild um in particular but the biz Art Guild focuses more on value streams and capabilities apqc to me focuses more on processes so they're complementary in my mind um I know John you're more experienced with both than I am I would have I would exactly answer it the exact same way so yeah I would say definitely here there's the other if you join this it's 125 bucks a year to join and I joined it and if you join it and just sitting in on those meetings with all of the other business Architects so on the government one we talked about one of those 2000 capabilities for 45 minutes uh so the the level the detail they go into here and I think that's what I like about that and apqc I think somebody defines those and then gives them to you uh this is a guild so it's it's a Consortium of people in these actual roles that are defining this business architecture that decides what goes into those those standards uh so it's I I think I've learned a ton since I've been on here just on how the process of defining a business capability which represents the business at rest and then how they tie back to Value streams so I think these guys I think this is the kind of de facto standard for business architecture to me um and not you know the process of defining things and all the things we always talk about but the actual objects right the actual data that gets created for an industry and if you would uh this is the answer to my question that I posed to Ian early on apqc provides the questions our data Post Service initiation or or operations gives us the data in context which is the answers to those questions and so if you take the uh business architecture Guild and the value stream story you plug it into the role with the questions and answers the answer to the value stream lies at the end of the apqc question and answer I hope that made sense yeah I love that all right that brings us to the end here and we will um I think next week we'll pick up my business capabilities that's what I had on the list I don't have time to go through our kind of content agenda but I'll put that out there so everybody has it on the community so Ian thanks again so much for sharing your content today and I will put that deck in the community so everybody can have a look at it and we'll talk to everybody in a few weeks have a good