Stern welcome everybody um my name is Mark Castell I'm a product success manager uh with servicenow and we're here today to talk about application portfolio management and how to find that implementation roadmap that lets you find Value both early midterm long term this your roadmap is unique to your organization and but there are some suggestions and key Concepts that we can share with you um the the hopefully we can help you um with all these low meetings we start off with Safe Harbor it could be that we'll bring up some subjects for future facilities or enhancements or features of APM that are slated for next year or sometime but with Safe Harbor we can't guarantee it so we give you the hate Safe Harbor statement here a little bit of housekeeping um got quite a bit of content to run through so if you could um put your questions in Q a and then the last half of the meeting we intend to have an open Forum or answer your questions live but um other members of my group Molly and Tony are also on with us so they'll be answering some of the questions in the background we're going to record this session and it'll be available afterwards and then also afterwards we may be sending you a little survey to see what you think and we really do welcome your feedback it helps us to improve these kind of presentations a little bit more about me just a product success manager I've been with servicenow for about four years I've been doing APM for over 20 years and other tools Enterprise architecture tools and that sort of thing so seeing a lot of customers helped a lot of customers Implement APM and my passion Now is really APM in service now it's where it belongs you got the best possibilities to build a program are objected today is that you'll have insights on how to define a roadmap even if you've already implemented APM there's things happening in fact there's a whole lot of things happening and overall servicenow continues to grow and improve APM is not a product that just sits there by itself and does something it's tied to dozens of different products in the system in fact it's kind of a a it's kind of a dark matter that helps tie together these Concepts is deeply embedded in csdm so the idea here today is start where you are establish your objectives understand new features or areas that you've not covered and form that into a roadmap that's achievable for your organization you've got to gather data you've got to establish processes organizational change change so we want to give you some tips and suggestions on that talk about our maturity model so the agenda is rather simple just a quick overview refresher of APM a quick mention of the the features we don't have time today to go through all of the features but hopefully you have seen some of these new features and that may be something that that we would run another meet up just to review the features but there have been quite a few presentations out there let us know if you need that and then second and and really the the need of this this Meetup is the ATM Fitness and maturity model we're going to talk about a prescriptive way it's not written in stone because as I said your roadmap is unique to you and what you're doing but it's a sometimes you need a suggestion where do we start what do we do in the middle what's going to be big bang value for us and so um you know we we look at their fitness model which is a route through getting value out of all APM so start with it APM is growing in the past year the feature set of APM is more than doubled new features if you haven't seen it again we want to let us know we'll make sure that we get you to some resources where you can see these things so there's YouTube videos actually out there where you can see these new features um but Enterprise architect workspace technology reference model lucidchart integration export to PowerPoint digital interface and integration management Cloud assessment are are the key ones that we've released just in the last six months so this is a really great time for for APM we're moving forward with a lot of features that have been asked for in the past and and making it a much more powerful product APM itself is still even with our new features there's four kind of four key areas that we cover and address there's at the core of it that list of applications the Enterprise systems that your companies depend upon and drive and support your capabilities capabilities that's the business that's how we align the businesses these tooling supports these capabilities this tooling these Enterprise systems they're comprised of Technologies so how do you manage Technologies the the bill of material of Technologies and vendor risk the the support risk as well as um with the new trm module you can actually start to govern what technologies are available it gives you a tool probably many of you are already doing this maybe in spreadsheets or other systems we now have a system that's integrated into search now works with samcro that allows you to manage your software Technologies hardware and even technology Stacks is something that's coming and then finally information governing your information portfolio what information is being used how do you quantify that information as and qualify that information based on what kind of view you know is it pii is it PCI other regulatory type things so the feature set just another way of looking at it and being a little more detailed about it under application portfolio of course we have the inventory now we have things we also have artifacts Associated to these applications frankly artifacts the the application artifacts that facility is available on just about everything in APM business capabilities Integrations we're using the artifact mechanism quite a bit Now application rationalization one that's a great way to save money make the system pay back and get value out of it and even in a short term also midterm and long term it only gets better as you grow in maturity application governance the Enterprise workspace digital integration Cloud assessments that all fall under the application portfolio information portfolio again it's about the information that is utilized by your business application how it's being used as well is captured as a part of it business portfolio allows us to align our applications to the to what your organization does your capabilities it also allows us to manage and measure if you're going to improve something you've got to measure it so you can measure those capabilities understand where you have weaknesses and where you have strings identify your strategic capabilities the ones that you want to enhance and improve and look at what is the tooling underneath it what are we where do we invest um it's it's a classic strategy for eye level strategic planning of enhancing what your company does best or where you need to do better in order to improve your company's performance and then technology portfolio as we mentioned we have that technology portfolio what is what technologies am I using what are the vendor life cycles then also I have a governance model in the technical reference model that allows me to express these are the technologies that you're allowed to use within our organization and it works with technology portfolio management to identify places where you're using unapproved technology technical debt and as I mentioned a moment ago 8 PM doesn't just sit there by itself it is engaged and connected to so many things within the platform and each of these Avenues exposes Big Value improved visibility of what's Happening how your Enterprise really works um Integrations for example like our lucidchart PowerPoint integration with strategic portfolio management could be project demand is an out of the box and if you do nothing else we do recommend you do use demands to express here's a business case for doing something an upgrade a migration and retirement that's how we identify and model the the roadmap for our business applications but it's that doesn't stop there or integration with SPM allows APM to become a driver for the intake in your strategic planning so part of what SPM is now doing we're moving out of just project management and agile yes and safe those are still there but we're up leveling the game to strategic planning so understanding how the business application inventory aligns to that and vice versa that's a key bit of visibility that you need interaction with itsm incident problem change vendor contract key elements that's driven by the csdm elements and connectivity that you that comes out of APM Integrations with GRC and irm understanding risk audits controls associated with your applications the business applications is one of the key entities that is in a GRC the irm practice you identify against these business applications the Integrations that we have helped Drive the process to make it more efficient icon one of the key elements that we do business applications capabilities are very abstract but via csdm we can connect from that abstract level all the way to the floor in the data center we know what systems are supporting those business applications we know how they're constructed um platform capabilities surveys assessments these are all tools that we use to make the whole thing happen and then finally one of our biggest Integrations is with it Asset Management um software Asset Management Hardware Asset Management the pro versions of these give us a Avenue to get extreme automation on actually discovering a normalized list of Technologies be it Hardware or software they're used to comprise instances of your business applications this is a pretty busy diagram I've heard somebody call it a A Streetcar map and it kind of is but if you follow it from the top here um you can see where at the front end we're Gathering intake part of that intake comes out of APM we formulate everything into demands we associate that with the Strategic roadmap continuous planning feeds the development engine and development can happen in many different ways it could be agile it could be running Nigeria you could be using iron Edge out are safe you could be using other systems rallies jira Etc how you do work we care but we're adaptable we can work with you and how you work what we really want to do is give you that visibility for strategic portfolio management of what work is going on what's driving that work where's it come from and is it aligned to our strategy and our strategic priorities and our goals we build things we deploy them in and and becomes value chains value delivery to our customers we call this digital products digital portfolio management represents that digital product being delivered to the customers so coming out of the work area um we we see that we deliver we deliver things we just deliver products service applications to our customers change release incident problem are involved they also help to improve those services that we're delivering risk plays at the development level but also plays in our operational level operations management again feeds back into APM Asset Management feeds back into APM and round and round we go this is the big picture of that delivery value stream you I our proponents of csdm what they're saying now is we are delivering digital product everything can be managed or or um I guess imagined as a digital product so how do you get to maturity so we have a series of Fitness levels so we used to have crawl walk run the csdm still does crawl walk run this is a new version within our strategic planning group we're using this Fitness level it's same thing just kind of different words for it such a basic level you're developing the the application inventory that's where you start nothing happens till you build that application inventory you bring it under management it's under management in one place you know who owned you have processes for owners of the records but those those owners represent the I.T and business owners of the actual applications so you're bringing it into inventory you start to align it to I.T so enhancing that information associating it down into the operations level of things you know to explicitly creating those application services and associating to the infrastructure that gives you that view from a business application concept all the way down to operations the servers the Cloud Server the database Etc that make it up next we begin to align to the business I did a first step in that is to identify your and build your business capability model and start doing that alignment what capabilities do these applications support and if it's not supporting a capability it's either one not a business application it may be a shared service that through others supports a particular capability but so it could or could may not be or it is just misaligned you have it you need to look further you need to dig deeper with all of this in place um I actually I believe here at level one you can begin rationalization but you're doing it in a basic manner at this level level four rationalization is just part of your practice you are able on demand or on a schedule to go through and evaluate what do we have to do with this inventory how are we proactively managing it it's what it amounts to and then finally integration with technology and business function that full-blown picture of your application how it aligns our lines to business how it aligns to technology speaking on a architectural and Enterprise architecture and risk foundation and then how does it tie into operations including not just the servers but also itsm functions instant problem and change so level one established that inventory that inventory is um that inventory is is key to everything it's the foundation so that Foundation from there you build it the key things you want to grab in the beginning are ownership and classification I don't have it here on the slide but think about if you can give me a category and you can give me the business and I T owners with the category it's expressing what the application does from a technical perspective right there I can do the simplest kind of rationalization if I need to know something about that application I've got somebody that I can go to I know the ownership change from there I start to drive my process um dependencies in this area business architecture begins its definition we start here starting to Define business architecture includes some of those capabilities we're going to get there and at Fitness level three but we begin here and here we also as we begin to define those business applications we want to start aligning to the application Services it can take a long time to do this start early so you know basically the key thing here is get that business application inventory start to get your capabilities in in order um that's his it Focus understanding level two better understanding of your applications and what we're doing here is we're enhancing we're picking up more attributes we're making these applications more expressive we start to measure the applications with things like assessments so we need one of the the key facilities of the APM is that scoring and indicator framework at this level you start to pick up uh measure the applicant the application inventory using just subjective assessments you know later we as we tie into itom and incident problem change we can do objective measurements and of course if you're ready now do it now it all depends upon where you're at not just with APM but also with the rest of your servicenow platform it's a holistic kind of of playing you have to have multiple things working together but here with assessment base you don't have to have your application Services you could actually start evaluating right away with other things like data Health processes data certifications start those processes so your organization gets used to participating APM is a team sport and that team happens to be just about everybody in I.T potentially so start that alignment start getting things ready so that you can we're leading towards that full picture in the end top to bottom level three this is about that getting now getting the the maturing your itsm and your your infrastructure alignment and now you start to line to to the business expressing how these applications support your capabilities what your what Your Business does start to drive the actions and activities the the in demand use the tool to really Drive change and keep that visibility everything's all in one platform you can see end to end here's our application inventory here are the things that we said that we want to do the business cases it expressed as demands if you have SPM you can align to strategies and goals enhance the measurement of your inventory also now is a good time to start to Define your technology standards in trm you don't have to have that Integrations to Sam you can start to Define that catalog of Technology standards business capabilities and also as part of business capabilities I want to go back to it sorry start to score those business capabilities you started establishing the model you've got it in place you're aligning it now start managing that capability model evaluated under the traditional people process technology View level four this is let's get some value back out of all this hard work we've done if you hopefully you're already getting the value you should be in fact as you establish your romance always look towards how to you know I'm going to do this here's the value statement for what I'm going to get back out of it so each level does give you value but here's where the power is really happening you've got a robust and well-managed application inventory it's aligned at the top level to your business capabilities it's aligned to your infrastructure you can start to really make by valued and very detailed analysis to make strategic decisions on how to improve the how the company works continue to mature those technology standards start to get set up for doing TPM and and your technology alignment if you have the facilities start to measure some extra things such as total cost of ownership we're working on Solutions in this area there are Partners out there that can give you extremely robust TCO Solutions rationalization use these tools we have the the FourSquare bubbles chart here that you can use and run a practice similar to Gartner's time model you can use if you have SPM you can use APW to do planning of the work that you're that you're doing and then finally level five you're integrated at the technology level so you've got visibility above and below you and then you also understand the technologies that you're using you're managing those Technologies through trm you have a really strong end-to-end continuous process plan build run return back plan build run is that continued that you see us express under csdm so that's this is technology portfolio management again the applications the services the Technologies use the vendor life cycles this if you haven't seen it is trm or it's one view of it here's the products that we declare that are allowed for use and our statements on when particular versions can be used in the form of life cycles here's an example roadmap so this is the kind of thing that we would do in our our workshops with you if you ever engage with servicenow customer outcomes this material is available on now create by the way and it and it's just this is a simplistic roadmap of laying out what kind of what features we want to take on and when we're going to do it to find multiple phases put dates on these phases and begin a reasonable Journey you see here we have you know it obviously begins with established the inventory start later on towards the end of this phase when we start establishing capability models that can take some time so you get started earlier understand csdn Starts day one create leakage out here we see is phase two this is that application service to business application and and we're dependent upon item operations service mapping Discovery Etc to help enhance that the fine assessments early and begin to measure that inventory you can start to get some value back very quickly and then establish the periodic assessments don't just do it once you start doing it on a six-month basis or a yearly basis and make it part of the the uh the processes in your organization as time goes on you take on more operational metrics you define your own metrics to meet your needs alignment with itsm and use of demand begin to use demand to drive activities aligned once you have your application services or service mapped and and they're correctly Associated incident problem and change can be rolled up and understood in the context of the business applications part of your measures um technology start to establish that technology portfolio and the idea of this is and this is just a tool I'm sorry um you move these around you establish them and set them to yours to your needs and to the goals that you establish here are some examples of kpis that we use I don't want to read all of them to you you can this presentation will be available after but you know some of the things applications in the same category applications with differing technology Stacks how many technology Stacks are used or what happened what is the count by Tech stack um capability scores application scoring these are all viable kpis that you want to keep and manage for one evaluating the inventory and doing strategic decisioning and then also operationally you want to manage how well your APM program is going so you might measure things like a number of completed certifications or length of time to complete a certification run those sort of kpis all become valuable and that is the end of my presentation part of it what I'd like to do is open the floor for discussion if you have questions comments um want to know something um please please shout out do we have any questions hi can you hear me yeah I can okay um I'm Adrienne and I'm with a common Spirit Health we are currently implementing um SPM and um it's it's I guess I guess what I'd like to know is we're just now I'm the senior project manager and I'm just now launching um uh APM as well okay so I already have uh the major uh demand uh PPM all of that's going on there in process uh workshops right now and I'm just kicking off APM right now okay I know every client's different et cetera et cetera but on that average typically how long does it take to implement APM properly like what I've just seen in your presentation okay uh hi Adrian and that's a wonderful question um I I couldn't ask for a better question so um first off it's wonderful you have APM and SPM so you really set up for what I think is a highly valuable tool implementing APM it takes it takes years actually and it's never ends it's always ongoing because there's always applications coming and going so you always have your inventory but establishing that inventory and getting this rudimentary kind of going back to these diagrams and these are just some suggestions the going back to this obviously the first thing is you want to get a certain set of that ideally I I guess I see two different approaches you can get your key applications and go very deep on them try to get all the attributes you can or what I find is a better practice get every application that you can probably you're not going to pick up everything but just get us a small subset of attributes and start with and then have in the next phase or maybe halfway through phase one you've established it then you do a data call and say hey we need these additional attributes from you when you start all you need is the it owner the business owner a description and a category that gives you enough to get value it gives you two persons that you can reach out to to gather more information and you can grow that inventory so that process that could take let's say I've seen it take anywhere from nine months to two years depends on the size of your organization executive sponsorship is also very important really good executive sponsorship that makes it happen fast if you don't have to you're going to struggle a little bit and and maybe not get as much help but one of the things that I think is key is the it owners have to participate they have to own their records and don't overwhelm them but ask them a little bit more as time goes on they'll get used to it and as you start to show value with rationalization and other such thing visibility um you know it gets better they they'll come and they'll actually they honestly want to participate as you start to establish that establish some simple measures So within that first year you could get to a level three is not unreasonable to kind of give you a direct answer uh no I really appreciate that thank you so much you bet thank you well I have a question um this is Todd can we get to 8 PM level one without service mapping and itom yes so level one is you want to be looking towards it but what I've seen and I've done this with several customers will create the you know we identify best we can that initial inventory and we import it in um there's actually at the end of this this presentation there's a link to another presentation we did um into the year last year you can use spreadsheet to upload it it can be very simple but you can establish your business application inventory with that the owners in the category and maybe just create a nominal application service that doesn't do anything you work with your platform team for it it's not service mapped or anything it's just there's a placeholder but right then and there you've got value and you got a placeholder for when service mapping Etc does come in does that make sense yes sir thank you but thank you for your question all right my name is Chris can you hear me yeah hi Chris hey uh yeah we've been working with um APM for about two years now and um it's really interesting because we've gone through and and done most of the steps that you talked about in level one and level two and even getting into level three and and uh we're doing some of the rationalization stuff in level four and and the time scoring and things but there's also something that I feel like now that we've done all this stuff how do we connect the dots how do we you know create the the planning and strategy portions how do we you know how do we run the reports that give us the the insights that we're looking to get and how do we make sure that you know we're connected and we're getting the True Value out of it now that I've set up that foundational piece how do I take it to the next level yeah one of the key things is but to me is creating the demands so you've established the inventory you've got a tool now that you can use and you start doing the rationalization what is the output of your app rationalization is some evidence and and I say use demand I don't know what else you might have um could you you might have you know jira and and ca for your project portfolio management those could be totally off platform and that's okay with demand you can have at least an expression so one of the the kpis you might start to gather is how many retirements upgrades Cloud migrations Etc do we have planned for the next two years three years whatever your planning scope is I find three years is rather popular and so understand here's our application burn down our retirement um in the next three years here's our Cloud migrations in the next two years so identify the actions record them at least as a demand and then dark those become goals they become activities to work towards drive to making those things execute and then Circle back around that's that's kind of the first level that that I've seen okay all right thanks you bet all right this is Chloe um I know we've talked about the connections with other products we talked about SPM specifically demand what we're looking to do is implement the irm product and I'm wondering the connection between APM and irm maybe through the information portfolio and what are the benefits of connecting those two products I I've um probably won't have time today but we can get you know um work with your account team um or even up on YouTube there are some videos of that integration I think it is really cool so one of the facilities that you get with it and once you have irm and APM your your license if you will to go to the store and get the two Integrations there's one for risk integration then policy and compliance and what it does the risk integration you get a workflow and you could you you know you'll want to adjust it and configure it to your processes but essentially this workflow when you create a new business application so somebody comes in they register a new business application that workflow kicks in and it identifies the it owner and the business owner it starts with the it owner and it sends them a really comprehensive risk assessment they fill in that risk assessment it goes back to the risk manager so that and basically there's a cue for the risk manager somebody takes it up and they address it they can assign risks they can assign policies and controls it can then be fed back to and and they'll recommend certain data classifications that gets fed back to the business owner who can then approve it and so you have it gives gives you a foundational workflow for that also one of the things it can do is if you have your information objects identified it can make recommendations you have to configure them as as a part of your irm uh deployment but you can configure them to look for certain uh information objects being associated which will then give you it used to just automatically assign a real risk or a policy to a business application now and what it does is I think it makes suggestions that you assign it but you can make it work either way you can automatically assign risks that have to be addressed you can assign controls that have to be addressed to that application based off the information that you have so it's it's a really you know powerful thing and it actually performs something that people that have built their own APM or donated other systems I see them building their own thing to do all of this um time and time again thank you for that information yeah it definitely seems very powerful we'll look into the that integration and then the policy and compliance integration as well thank you you bet um one more thing on that there is a um I think it was called uh last Thursdays with SPM there's a recording where they fully demonstrated and and you should be able to find it at their own community and if not reach out to me and I'll find the link and send it to you awesome thank you other questions I have sort of a weird one we have a well-established uh APM as well as I am the cmdb and Discovery guy um but because there have been many hands over many years touching the APM um there's things like 7-Zip in there um is there anything that you'd coach around as they say removing or re-classing items like that rather than just simply changing the class to software or just you know where I'm going with that one yeah absolutely so and use and all I've done this for a long time I've always recommended the end user Computing doesn't really belong in your APM because you're not going to make strategic decisions on it it's not entirely true trm is a really great place to put 7-Zip as maybe it's your preferred um you know compression encryption uh tool so trm gives you a great place to represent it as a business application you're not really going to make strategic decisions nor are you going to have application Services tied to infrastructure with it that would first off would be thousands of connections and it would give you zero value in every case so seven Zips not upgrade is a business application but it's great to put in as a trm entry and manage it there under asset management software Asset Management man if you if you license it uh maybe you decide instead of seven zip you go to WinZip and you do license at a corporate level but you want to count your entitlements and use of it so I mean that's actively being done so so the probably the path is either doesn't exist in the asset management which I'm I'm part of that group um it doesn't exist already in the correct table um if so Harvest any interesting information attributes out of the APM entity and then retire slash right yeah exactly it's I I liken it to cleaning out the garage no matter how good your program has been stuff Creeps in so you have to clean up every now and then and it's just if you have a process where you're continually you know maybe once a year you have a valuation of it and things that seem to have low activity low value somebody's not doing their certification on it that leads you to those things um things that you that's why category is so important and as important as capabilities and by the way capabilities what your company does is completely different from category which is a technical function of the application 7-Zip is an end user Computing tool used for compression and encryption of files and if you have it categorized you can find things that that are doing that sort of thing and maybe you say you know what we no longer want to support end user Computing in our our APM some companies are processes simply require it so it's not going to break anything but it's just one more thing you have to manage every record should deliver value that's what it gets down to for me cool thank you [Music] Mark um I have a question here um so there's a Della would like to know are there resources available to support re-implementation or get back to out-of-box APM um tough question and I wasn't sure how to answer that so in my former days in customer outcomes we had a we had offerings where we could help you and that is if you choose um you know we'd love to see you work with our customer outcomes they literally have a program where they'll go in and assess what you do help you identify what needs to be removed but I can tell you about the the steps for it is one like the discussion we just had formalize and and formalize what is a business application so this is go back to csdm and say this is a business application these other things are not so if we find and then review the inventory remove the things that are not when it comes to attributes review your attributes and uh review your custom attributes and and determine is there really a process by which somebody owns this and they're providing consistent truthful information for it and we have a process or processes that consume it and get value out of it if you don't have both of those things get rid of it because nobody's using it or you're you're using it inconsistently which is that's almost worse because you you you can't make a a inventory level decision so evaluate your your your attributes on people process and value and get rid of the ones that you can and then you know essentially what I've seen people do is you just go in and you mark those as don't use don't use you remove them from the forms and then as time goes on you can archive that data if you think you might need it at some point in time or then you remove it so you I so it's identification marking tagging if you will and then removal is is kind of the general set of steps and and what we did in customer outcomes we did that analysis and planning and then we would had a series of phases where we do it or help you to get started to doing it step at a time got it really really appreciate that uh um it's uh it's really refreshing to know that we're on the right track with getting back to out of the box yeah it is you know and I I I you can get incredible value out of the box but I've been doing APM for a long time eight we don't have every attribute that you might need that your company needs because the way you see the world or because of the industry that you're in or your particular situation adding a few attributes is great adding flows to help drive your processes fantastic use assessments instead of creating attributes that's another trick that I love I I had somebody that was doing pii and they've got the pii expressed in their in their information objects but hooking them up and knowing and certifying it was kind of hard awkward they knew it was inaccurate created an assessment with all the pii elements in each it owner once a year goes in because this company was under gdpr and they had strict regulation they had an assessment and they would had to say do you use social security number yes I do where do you use it is a customer is it employees employee spouse applicant Etc they had five different personas that you might have gathered that information for and you had to say yes I use it here's how I use it and did it with an assessment there were hundreds of attributes in that assessment but you translated into just a single indicator that says yes I have pii it's a great way to go about it that's just an example anything else so while everybody's thinking a little bit I want to just a little bit of an advertisement for our group um the SPM Group that's servicenow we need your help we need customers that that like what we're doing but and we don't claim to be perfect we need your feedback to be better and so one of the ways that we can do that is our STM evangelist customer advocacy program if you're interested here's some information like I say this will be um this will be this um deck will be provided for everybody after the meeting as well as the recording um and if you're interested join us help us help us make this thing better um it's it's a community and our desire is to make this serve you so you get the most value and one last thing at the end you'll find a lot of reference material we have a tool kit that I referenced so that one it's up on the community look if you start your APM Journey toolkit on the community and got a variety of resources for those that are just beginning in their APM Journey foreign other questions comments we got another seven minutes I don't have any here in Q a thank you very much Mark great job oh and hmm I'm gonna pause the share so I can look at Q a [Music] um so Brad I would be interested so you know you you describe this it says Brad's question is it'd be nice to implement a discovery process for APM maintenance of APM is our our bottleneck and I'm curious how that would how you think that might manifest if you could elaborate I I really appreciate it sure I can try um so I've worked in a few organizations and the manual maintenance of APM data is you know extremely difficult to say the least and also um to develop a APM from the beginning is very difficult so the idea here is in the discovery we can Discovery applications right within our Discovery process if there was a way to do discovery at an APM level to try to utilize that same technique in the platform that would make things a lot easier and allow people to get started quicker does that make sense it does the problem is the information we're gathering in APM is not likely so you can discover applications so that's software installed on a server but you don't know that that application is part of the bigger enterprise system so in APM we're tracking Enterprise systems that are comprised of many applications working together so we find tomcat and we find MySQL and we find Apache and those are all applications singular but they're not business applications but you hook them all together and it makes a business application so the problem is unless you have the metadata as a part of Discovery that's really what service mapping is about I could see a program where you did Discovery then you started doing service mapping before you ever started APM then the application Services those Stacks that you find as a part of evaluating kind of from the bottom up those become those are instances of business applications so you could in theory kind of discover your way up and if you don't if you have an application service it's a stack of things working together what is this thing called what's the name of it for somebody's got to know that's kind of the point APM is to do that but at least it gives you something that you have a a task or a record for that you can go track it down yeah no I I totally follow that I'm just saying it's a starting point because you know sometimes organizations have a time even understanding what are the applications that are deployed right and I totally get what you're saying that at times multiple War files multiple jar files make up an application but it's a starting point and so that's all I was asking for and like we can be intelligent about what it would put in APM as well so we're not going to put Oracle in APM because it's not a business application so you know it would be confused yeah but it's used by a business application so that's you know you're asking for something that might give you it's an indicator that there's a business app out there who's using this Oracle oh that leads you to something yeah I'm not I'm not I'm not saying that we wouldn't still have some maintenance to take care of and to have to manually update some of that data I'm just saying it could be a starting point and it also could be a verification check so you know if I ran Discovery can I run Discovery and then take the results and push and measure it against APM to say hey you've missed an entire inventory system here you've missed an entire policy processing system you've missed our CRM system so it's just the concept that I wanted to just throw out there to see if there's anything in the road map try to help with this manual maintenance I I think you got kind of a cool idea um haven't thought of it that way um I've always kind of thought top down from it or at least meet in the middle but this is sort of a bottom-up approach yeah yeah and I know like there's yeah there's a new version of TPM coming out and there might be something to that um the the when it does come out in May uh Safe Harbor blah blah blah but when it does come out that might be something that is is of interest you could create and and the product manager I'm working with mentioned this he said what if we create a generic application in a generic uh application service and we can basically go after everything can we use that and then we can start to divvy it up you know these interconnected Stacks that's that's the key thing is you have to identify here's Oracle who's it connected to who's using it okay that's a stack so that belongs to an application service so that's what you've got to drive towards is getting to those app services from there the next leap is the business out yeah and with software Asset Management you know platforms are getting a lot more intelligent about vendor software right and a lot of companies as we move to vendor softwares and less in-house written stuff like a lot of that stuff is already documented so we could pull directly from you know a software Asset Management repository to populate some of this stuff so just an idea sounds great I I'll I'll talk to uh Gerard who is our product manager of things I appreciate it thanks all right thank you all and uh um have a great day and happy 8pm thanks everybody thanks Mark