this is Jason lascola uh we are I'm a part of the Enterprise architect team here at servicenow and uh we are going to cover part two today of the trials and tribulations of a csdm implementer so this is the Digital Services Forum we have our bi-weekly uh webinars and uh this is part two of a session we had a few weeks back so without further ado we'll move forward just wanted to welcome our new members uh as I mentioned here today if it's your first time with us please share your name company and what you do in the chat and so you can be welcomed by our other members welcome to the group about our Forum um right now the vision is to be a leader in the digital transformation thought leadership uh we want to enable our members to drive their own digital transformations we want to share work discussions papers shared instances and share capabilities instances and videos we Host this so the Enterprise architect team at servicenow hosts the Digital Services forum and we do have these bi-weekly hour-long web meeting sessions and special events so uh at the end of this before we turn it over to the speakers John Circle will make a couple uh statements as well related to membership and signing up and the Forum itself so we'll have that in here in a minute the agenda today is the trials and tribulations of csdm implementers part two so the part one was Eric Berry and David providing an overview of their role and giving you some overview of uh the work that they do and some of the some of the best practices they have this is going a little bit deeper today um so we really look forward to having David Berry and Eric provide their expertise uh in in the csdm using servicenow and hopefully that'll help our community really understand you know what uh how to do this and what some of the best practices around it uh feel free to use the chat uh as well for questions what we'll do is uh take a few questions towards the end of the presentation uh so we want to leave some time I'll let the speakers have their uh session and then we will uh we'll we'll try to address your questions there as well and then we do have the Forum so after the session you can go back to the Forum itself and then add any questions you have there in the comments and we'll get back to you uh you know as soon as possible on that myself and the uh the Digital Services forum team which I will show you here we'll be monitoring that chat as or those comments as well so our steering committee uh John spirko uh myself Rachel and Charles Bartley are the team that support this and have provide the the content for you and and host the sessions as well okay today's meeting uh is the uh part two and you can see we have the list of future sessions we only have two more this year so we'll talk about digital product operating model and then we'll do the year in review as well uh in December okay so with that I'm going to hand it over to John real quick to say a few words John do you wanna yeah thanks Jason you're welcome go ahead and take your screen real quick and I just want to show a couple things on what we've been working on okay right so the Digital Services forum a couple of you emailed me over the last few weeks because your links don't work anymore so there's a new Forum that's out there now and you can come up in um and I'm logged in right now but you can go ahead and register for this forum so it's our Forum it's everything that we're doing on this call and what I've been doing is putting in this is the meeting today I've been advertising the meeting in there so that you can go and get the registration link for the meeting if you ever lose that and want to get registered for future sessions if you see the old sessions they'll have the date on there when we went ahead and recorded it or what you can do is you can go let me show you if I go into one of these this is the one we did on October 13th so if you go ahead and click on this link it'll take you to that meeting but it'll also give you access because a lot of people what they take away from this meeting are the slides they'll use a slide or two that maybe you know Eric or Jason showed so here's are the slides and then here's the video on YouTube so the slides will take you to another link and then I just want to show you one quick thing on here so sometimes if there's two presenters like there were here we had um now on now our servicenow team present and then we had our Professional Services uh some teams from there so there's two items in here so you'll be able to switch back and forth on those items so when I do send you the content links you might not see the slide you're looking for because you haven't switched to that other item okay the other thing we have too is if you want to go Direct on these there is another um there's the Digital Services Forum playlist and those are both linked in the bottom of the meeting invite so trials and tribulation somebody's watching that that last movie but this is all of the all of the sessions that we've had so far this year so it's kind of linked twice I have I put it on YouTube then I'll come back and I'll put a link in our community but our community also has access to those files so this way everybody's got I was getting a lot of emails saying hey where the files where the slides so when they're when they're available to me I'm going to put them up in on that Community Link so go ahead and register makes it really easy to get notifications when those files are available and also when the recordings are available that's all I wanted to share today so I'll hand it over to I think is it Eric or um I'll be presenting about Barry is going to start all right bury all yours I'm going to stop share thank you yeah you share so welcome everyone let's go to the introduction page here so my name is barikant I'm a group flow solution architect based in the Netherlands um I work primarily in itcm area but do a lot of cstm work I'm acting in my team in the media as a CEC my experience is 20 years in it in which uh 20 years it7 as well for the last 10 years I do CCM it was named somewhat different but the concept wise it is the exact same so pretty familiar I do a lot of implementations in manufacturing Finance Banking and a lot of remediations on CCM I think about between eight and ten a year something like that um and those were those are never be the same so it's always a new challenge um yeah thank you Eric go to the next one so I want to take you a little bit on how how I do an engagement so I get my uh my engagement from uh from our resourcing team um the scope is nearly always unclear at the start so this you can do CCM to find out what it is about so it's uh always a bit of a challenge so the way I approach it is uh that you start with and uh with awareness sessions and a good State assessment and what is really important is to see what is the target scope where we want to aim for um normally I I do a book a proof of concept and we validate and do an impact analysis and make a room look for uh for a production yes please Eric so the way I start with an assessment is a number of uh system awareness sessions so short introductions basically uh it depends sometimes I work with the core team on the custom side sometimes it is a bigger team so with a with a high number of stakeholders um and when when I think the the awareness is settled then I do my exercise on deep dive into the the customer instance so I use a number of scripts I try to figure out um what the data quality is foundation data seem to be data primarily if if it is consistent it can be not not correct but still it can be consistent that is a different topic um then this discussion on what the ambition is that this platform on the discussion or maybe uh what what does the company want with search now in the roadmap so what is the target it's uh you you get way different answers it can be coming from or drifting from I.T or driven from C Level or driven from the business side and those are really different entry points and it might be completely different scope if it is uh focused on itsm only maybe APM maybe secops um so that it is really um mandatory do you understand what it is about it's not one of one size fits all exercise it is not a technical exercise at all and so you really need to slice and dice the outcome and therefore the delivery method that uh that is kind of pragmatic for me depends on the current state depends on the target State depends on the current data quality um or data sources and and the impact that it might have my engagements are normally let's say between 8 and 12 weeks with a limited number of hours a week so you really need to Target the scope of what we aim for things that you can assess um by scripts is for example in the right upper corner um you see relationships that are kind of consistent but between incorrect classes so I highlight all of those things and the better the the data quality is from a consistent point of view the easier it is to remediate it by Logic um but it also tells a bit about how a customer is like if it is really consistent it means that the cmdb is taking seriously so that is not not the discussion needed on the governance or at least less if discovery is in place then that that Discovery box in the csdm picture I leave it out in the in the csdm for me the cstm is then more the outer layers around the real realized Solutions if the company has sort of models in place or support models in place that can be quick wins sponsorship is always important in my opinion because um you need your back protected in engagement like this because you have so many stakeholders on the table you you might have internal discussions that you you need backup from from within the company you cannot come in as an external party and tell people how they should do it that doesn't work and my aim for shorter engagement is to limit it based on impact so if if the changes that I need that are too input for um then you also need management of change or you need to to have end user enablement sessions or trainings that will be a different scope I think so I try to avoid that in my exercises foreign I use this uh this plate as a talking plate and I I reuse it every time over and over again so in this picture I highlighted the current state I simply make the outlines call it meaning it is currently in use and the data quality is okay then it is full green if it is not in use at all then I make it red um and if it is somewhat okay then I make it orange so in this picture you see the business service the business application and um the it application landscape are all green um but the rest is not really used and then oh I make the same picture as a Target stage so they recognize where we go to and my slides in between will be about the progress so I I make it uh I changed on the fly when the progress is done um yeah if you go please to the Target state so in this case we had a very limited or a small Target we we want to remediate the construction I show that example in the next slide but um here this is this is really what we what we aim for in this engagement and it means that you um introduce you the according stakeholders on the table to discuss that and to to see if he can have for example trust the data that is needed find logic to remediate that and go for the next step to make a proof of concept approach um yes please so in this in this example uh I found the models as on the left side so there was structure in it it was um and it was quite consistent but it was not correct so we we decided to reuse the data that we could see so for example the sort of a data included used for attribute where it states this is a test uh environment and this one is a production environment based on the offering we copied application Services out of it the the business offering was used in ticketing so I left that so I didn't want the impact on the on the ticketing part and I reused the existing relationships um and and added a few new relationships so on ticket level or on the report left although was not any impact even in this one we left the processes as is so uh and usually impact or operator impact was not um was not happening as well and then um yeah the how to I try to pocket if you go to the next one foreign [Applause] to to Really control what you what you remediate uh and preferable uh a flow that can be used on top of the catalog item uh sometimes a bit of preparation is needed to to enrich the data um so those steps need to be in a room book um but in this case uh I connect business application with the business services and that is my input for the flow and that is that is doing a technical trick and and the realization of the the the example on the right on the previous slide um and those things can be done if if it is really consistent if it is incorrect but super consistent um in this situation we had roughly 1000 uh business applications over the proof of concept you can do it in this manual way and then uh when when we proved and validated it improved the outcome that we turn it into a script fixed script so you can do it almost in the end So based on that validation um we built a room book The Room book is is tested on on another pre-prod instance and then prepare for a remediation of a production instance um that is how I try to do a remediation exercise are there any questions on this one awesome thank you Barry yep thank you I have one quick question for you it in that remediation are you often moving like an application service to a business service when people misclassify things is there absolutely yeah yeah so so is there move scripts that you use or is there something in the product that no I I use I make my scripts indeed um in this example was fairly simple I had another example that I read I had the same example that you were asking me also that everything in the application table which should be um in the application service table and then I make a fixed script or do it also with a catalog item for the proof of concept okay and the other thing is that in in not any engagement is the same you you might over the years you might have uh let's say your own library with scripts that might be an option Maybe but every time it seems to be different okay if you have any uh simple scripts that that are used generally useful um that I would put in with the with the on the community there yeah yeah send them my way that'd be great just so we can maybe look at a couple that you did to reuse those yeah I have some comments oh yeah all right thank you I had a quick question um on this slide before we move off um I was just wondering I can see on here where it says create calculated application service record so you're talking about this customer previously didn't have application services and now that you were you were adding in the application Services layer um were you just creating records in the application service table or were you actually going back and running Discovery and creating service maps in those application service records no so if it is a sort of map then it is a discomfortable so the calculated table is the dynamic surface where you actually relate uh CIS to a application service and then it is acting as if it is it is four foot function so it sinks a number of levels of your relations to the Association table so the dynamic service is let's say the service mapping if you don't have service mapping that's the difference you see the difference okay I think so I don't know if we've done the calculated we we need the full service mapping so we're actually running service mapping so I don't think the camera related Services is the answer if you do not have pseudos mapping but still for the bigger companies um it flattens out your relationship table so you you have to choose a number of levels that you keep in sync and every time that you relate something or discover something that can be related and then if it is within those number of levels it also syncs it to the association table uh which is uh for impact analysis for example way faster uh on the bigger cnbs than than going through three four five levels of Irv okay and are you able to have calculated application Services as well as service Maps actual if you're doing service Maps could you have both of those in the same environment or can you only have one or the other no you can have both and uh the calculated service is an extent of the of the discovered surface um you have to take to consider um within a process so if you um for example incident or change management if you do the refresh impacted surface logic then you have to choose on the properties if you want to use the cdb rail table or if you choose for the association table and that right now is a global property so it is not [Music] um let's say chosen depending on the offering on the context of the record so that makes it kind of global so you if you choose the association table then normally every application server should either be um a calculated service or a Met surface or a tag based service because those three actors the same those are all extended from that map service table okay thank you yeah for instance we're using um the uh that Association table um okay cool thank you so much yep you're welcome great questions all right thank you Barry so my name is Eric Dorr I'm a principal platform architect out of Milwaukee Wisconsin in the United States uh along with David he's one of my peers uh that's a platform architect if you're not familiar with the platform architect role um my peers and I were fortunate enough to work with companies as part of impact and one of the common topics that the platform architect is involved in is csdm this could be a discussion of transformation maybe it's a new environment or many cases we're looking at new product adoption and what that impact is for my uh session I really want to just take a step back and share key topics that I've seen companies either face challenges and how to overcome them or things to maybe consider to be in your journey given time if we're not able to get through the entire deck I'll make sure that this is given to Jason and John so you guys can reference set so thank you for having David and I today so this is the first star spot that I started uh it's very common to hear hey we're adopting csdm we want to talk to you Eric I love hearing this from my stakeholders um first question I ask why is csdm important to you and the answers vary and in some cases it's well we were told to implement cstm or maybe hey we want to implement CSM and I say why why do you want it and what you start finding out given that you know there's multiple layers sometimes if a organization can't answer why I would recommend just stopping pause and have that discussion really you need to kind of take a step back to say what are you trying to do um what are the outcomes you're looking to achieve and how are you going to measure success and if you're able to start isolating that and focus it's going to make your csdm journey a lot more successful for instance common use case I want to ensure High availability for my business stakeholders I'm going to reduce outages both in volume and duration and I'm going to measure that based on the number of outages and mean time to Restoration instantly by having that conversation you can take that entire csdm map and start focusing knowing that hey this is going to evoke here is maybe itom if you have event management it service management incident change you now start to know what are the personas that are involved and maybe the records that you want to start dialing in on that is a total different conversation than how do I adopt csdm holistically so start there next focusing on the value if you cannot communicate what the value proposition of these activities are you need to pause and given that there are a lot of different personas that are involved with csdm you will have to make sure that that different Persona understands the value proposition for example if I were to say we need csdm for Incident Management that may not be as successful as saying hey as a major Incident Commander csdm is going to allow us to quickly see impacted Services as a result of a major incident as a result I now know what support teams need to be involved what customers I need to communicate with I can see a better response and hopefully we get better restoration you can see those two different messages are completely different you're going to see a lot more success based on that persona next building out a roadmap you know as Barry mentioned understanding and assessing where you're at today and looking at where you want to go and you start to be able to drive to say hey what are the different activities who's involved you're starting to kind of formulate that plan now like any road trip you're going to have detours along the way be flexible make sure you communicate this is also where I see a lot of a cstm roadmap for a customer that maybe has been using service now for 10 years it's going to look completely different than a company that has just bought servicenow as Barry mentioned maybe hey we have records they're just not in the right table how do we get them to the right bucket how do we adopt our processes and more next having a conductor you know when you think about an orchestra you have a conductor they're keeping the time management the right beat the right Tempo they're making sure their influence and educating the different team members we have a ton of different musicians and instruments maybe the Drumline we have to have them speed up a little bit maybe the tuba you're a little loud let's step back a little bit let's do some rehearsals so to understand and make sure that we're having a great Symphony and this person is able to bring together multiple teams they understand the big picture of how things start flowing together and they're giving guidance if you don't have a conductor you may be stepping on each other's feet so having that person that can articulate that vision is pretty imperative uh now that you have a plan you have conductor what are those different resources um many cases you think CSM hey that's cdb manager they're just going to go out and get this going this is not a superhero this takes a concept of like the Avengers where you have multiple superheroes multiple people involved and with that you're gonna have to look at you know what are the accountable uh what are they accountable for what are their roles responsibilities you know the same DB manager is awesome they understand how the table structure works they can start influencing you know children tables data all those keys but are they necessarily going to be responsible for data accuracy the life cycle of the data you know the different process owners are going to be brought into how do I consume that information how do I utilize it the different service owners you know once you get Beyond Discovery and the application stack how are you better benefiting and achieving objectives through that service so making sure you can take a step back to go who needs to be involved who needs to be informed consulted you're going to see a lot more success now that we have our team the one to think about is like having a pit crew when you think of a pit crew and F1 racing you know the car comes in you have about 15 people that within three to five seconds you're changing tires you're feeling the car you're scraping the windshield you're doing everything now that you have a lot of people involved do they know what is expected of them do they know the tools that are involved do we have two people trying to change the driver's side front tire the first few cases you're running through this you may not be able to successfully get to a five second pick maybe you can't even complete a lab you ultimately are trying to build out and keep growing and growing until you can complete that race as part of the pit crew you're also taking a step back to say hey we just had this what were the challenges we faced and how can we improve them listening to everyone and giving guidance so now you have a pit crew you want to build out the team and skills so there's a lot of great different offerings that you should consider um one training you know now learning there's specific csdm information there's product training uh certified implementation specialist make sure to consider that um if you have not used now create I can't tell you a day that I don't use no create with my customers that's going to give you a lot of our product processes workshops and more like recreate the wheel when it comes to like organizational change management and create index that aligns to what out of box looks like um service now resources I love this form this is great that you're able we're able to talk to customers you're able to network with different peers in the communities posting on uh John and Jason's board and more uh if you're fortunate enough to have service now make sure you're using our resources and then if you haven't checked out YouTube uh Mark bobman Scott LEM and others they regularly are posting new cstm videos uh Mark and Caitlin Caitlin's our product owner for service Builder just did a video about how to use service Builder and csdm so make sure to monitor that you may also want to consider a partner someone that's been through this journey why recreate the wheel um and then of course tap into your network and Pierce uh stand organized um of course this picture is not organized uh I've been very fortunate enough to see a few examples where you have a well-running machine they run it as a program there's the right roles it's organized you're communicating status reports the risks are discussed you know are we monitoring are we taking activities your prioritizing growth and you start to see everyone kind of come together in that timeline um if you try to do this kind of on the side you may not be as successful um one of the things that I have seen a lot of success lately is actually having working models in your system that different csdm maturity levels it's great you can point people to the um the csdm 4.0 draft it's Theory it's it's good concept concept if you could start building out models within your instances to then have discussions with different personas you're going to gain a lot more success um one of the cool examples I saw was a customer that literally had you know for cstm crawl you have a business application an application service and maybe a server they actually built out mock records like that built out the relationships and then they started to use that in their you know process discussions okay now that we have this how will this work on Incident Management um hey we want to start building out and adopting digital portfolio management okay cool let's get to walk let's build out a technical service offering uh for Windows platform management let's see how this starts to work so by having that actually in your platform and being able to Showcase that you're going to gain a lot more adoption and then here are just a few other key topics that come to mind um you know think about sustainability you know it's one of those at some point you know ccm's a journey at some point you may not have as much of an organized project but you're still going to want to have that help chain you're still going to want to have like a technical governance board that can answer those inquiries of hey we're considering this new uh functionality in the platform how would this be modeled or maybe I have I'm a service owner and I've never used servicenow I have a vision of how it should look and how it should work can I come sit down with you and we can map that out uh there's also a lot of great platform tools such as the cdb Health Data certification and more a lot of workspaces are being released with uh San Diego and Tokyo so make sure you're leveraging that uh Knowledge Management great you have a team that understands uh how you got here and what you did but think about it a year from now is your organization going to be exactly the same are you going to have different partners different resources how do you make sure that instead of having ad hoc conversations you have Knowledge Management that you can point people to for self-help as an individual starts to get maybe entitlement to servicenow do they go through specific training for your organization of what does it mean to have application service um great question earlier about the service mapping you know now that we have that in place where can I go what can I see how can I expect that so I've actually seen customers build out a knowledge Base called how to use servicenow that all the different product process teams have put that material in there for individuals to use so these I probably could talk for hours on the different topics um that come to mind but these were the ones that really resonated with me as a platform architect so um I want to make sure that we give our um our teams enough time for questions but hopefully this resonated with you all uh yeah thanks Erica there was a question in the chat yeah I just wanted to see if you saw the question from Durga related to cmdb if cmdb is heavily customized from an application class app Services point of view what are the points that help customers in making a decision around instance implementation strategy new versus current instance that is a great question um you know unfortunately each company is going to be completely different of how they got to their Journey the number of Records um to me you know I love what Barry had earlier with like that basic assessment of like how many records how many how much information some of the things that I would start to have a conversation about um first what do you define an application service um a lot of the conversations I have with my stakeholders I present hey this these are the key tables as part of csdm here's how redefine it are you using this table today or maybe another table and are you defining it the same way um so that's step one and then step two uh given uh how long it's been I start to look at you know from a management and sustainability standpoint have they started to customize this you know you know let's say there's 50 fields on the box and you've added 200. you start to go okay how did we get here can we move to more of out of box um it's the it's almost the the level um or the requirements to lift and Shift versus the requirements to clean up and organize you have to weigh that in the value proposition um Barry anything you would add to that one thank you yeah so I have seen situations like that with um close to 50 custom fields on the application class where if you were to move it to an application service you realize assessing it that some of those attributes belong to business application Level and some uh belong to application service level so you need to identify what if why is the information on that application table level can we move it to level two business application do we have already similar attributes on that table yes or no so I think this is a scenario where the business application and and maybe the application servers both are not used yet um so you might reduce the number of custom fuels significantly come to mind to consider if you do have impact there are some different what we call technical accelerators that um you may want to consider it may not be specific to the application service class but for one I know is uh called tune up your cdb where our expert Services come in and they actually will do a cdb assessment um Dorito and start talking uh about opportunity and Sarah so that's a great input mechanism another one that a platform architect is delivering as part of uh impact is what we call a health assessment and that's taking um different concepts such as manageability performance security upgradability and user experience and it's quantifying scores by a leading practice of a scan of your instance with the health assessment you also get a detailed readout of those findings so before you decide to hey let's just jump to a new Greenfield instance I would start to look at some of those as inputs to know hey if the health if the Health Scan or the health assessment saying that we're in the 80s or 90s you probably don't want to move instances you know but if you know it's in the 40s or 50s you start to go all right there's going to be a lot of Level A level of effort to clean up um regardless if you decide to move to a Greenfield instance or clean up you not only think about how do we get there but how do we sustain it so that a year from now you're not in the same boat I have a question this is Lou from an architectural perspective think about this from Incident Management you select the business service you select an offering and for the CI you select the CI well what happens when that CI you select is a business application because out of the box you can do that and yet APM is looking at the business applications how many incidents were on a business app but yet DPM is expecting for the most part that stuff to be surfaced based on the business service offering how many incidents are against this offering well following common source data model the business application consuming the application service which is dependent on by the offering it's almost like it's redundant right if the if the incident has the business application as the CI instead of the offering as the CI then you're sort of left with a little bit of uh hey you know when you service that stuff up to DPM the some incidents would be on the business apps only be on the business service you know what I mean so how does the how do the companies make that the station which direction I should go or a service now planning to in the future you know close that Gap in those selections because you could have one or the other but they're really the same thing qual connected together in the common search data model that's a great question you know when I started talking to uh my customers about say a process such as Incident Management let's say we're doing the design review and I started to see them utilize business application records versus like I said application Services service operates and such I try to influence that business application as more of a strategic record versus the operational records of business service technical service Source operating application service or the underlying sea ice and how I start to influence that and and I love that we have DPM now because digital portfolio management if you've had the ability to establish like service portfolio management um and you can start to link that and then the roll up of course to 8 PM I think it's starting to make it so that we can actually digest that information um so and having the right record or right uh record with the right information sometimes I've seen individuals try to create fields on the business application record that are already redundant so one is I try to influence that um I can't speak to are they looking to close the loop on the use of business application as a CI to me where I start with is once I've had you know when I talk about that example of um building a working model you know running through that setup to say hey out of the box you know for instance here's a instance that I have that let's say I have a shared server it's pretty common that you have an underlying CI that's supporting one or many application Services we've all had this happen based on this if this server goes you know bump in the night I need to know what that domino effect is and there's actually out of box properties and settings that by you creating this incident let's say that there's icon and if you use the UI action refresh impacted services this is going to run through based on properties to say let's look at the affected Ci's what are the different application services that are impacted so I will see those uh four records on here actually there's more because it's part of a Dynamics CI group and then because I have the application service to business applications I have I can see that relationship so one understanding the OtterBox functionality um because I found that many customers they're trying to build out their own mechanism without knowing this already exists and then now that this is here having that understanding of how do I consume that say in digital portfolio management so as you mentioned with DPM one of the great Parts is um you know it's definitely focusing initially on say Enterprise applications but or I'm sorry in service portfolio management but if I say example I have zoom I have an application service I have the different service offerings you can start to get to that uh roll up and that aggregate of different kpis and information let me adjust the date so this actually looks good so I think one is that taking that step back now depending on um where you are in your journey um of course it's a lot easier to start from stretch but um this is that conversation to say what are we trying to achieve and how do we get there so it's a great question I think that's exactly right if you like John put something in a chat saying they business app is from a compliance position so while service now is allowing users to select that as the CI and maybe some of the people on the call have been doing that all along every company is different like what you said earlier except that you know I think when you start looking at APM apm's got the out of the box indicators and they're looking for the business app against the insert or the change so there's got to be an or statement or and I think it's ability you could just create another indicator instead of an APM on the analyze portals part of the application portal uh portfolio you just said it said it to the business service instead of the application Maybe yeah so that indicator is a link to a business application attribute right right at the out of the box one is and that's what I'm saying yeah that's the compliance positions so you would discourage as I think I heard and I've certainly heard John say in the past now if you can help it don't you know set the CI on an insert problem change task to a business app set it on the business you know as an infrastructure CI the server itself or an offering yeah the offering field is also on those forms too as well as the business service but it's really where APM consents so it looks to me like apm's trying to catch up maybe to DPM and some of the other things you'll want to try to accomplish there is uh so the the indicators of beautiful Legacy indicator so uh based on that Legacy attribute basically but the impact analysis you can enable to also make an impact analysis on business application that's also a property that you can set and if you do your input if you run your impact analysis it lists up all the business applications that are Upstream related to the CI that you selected and that indicators should use that related list that that is already known but it is not fixed in the APM part right I that confused me a little bit but generally say the out of the box indicator is looking at the business app as you've described and if you're not gonna if you're going to choose not to have that as a selection for an incident problem change request then you to get value out of using APM you're going to need to select some other indicator that's pointing to those other records and the good news is you can you can change that I just was wondering architecturally if that's where you all are headed yeah I'm not sure so uh if you have a CI that is impacting something it can it can impact multiple business applications so that is that is what you uh will get as a result if you're in your impact analysis uh to enrich that impact analysis you can set the property to also um use the business application in your impact analysis and the indicator should actually use the related list for that to do the analysis on the APM dashboard oh that's good so the logic is there from a ticketing point of view so the business impact or the impact analysis is working fine but the dashboard is using an attribute that we don't use anymore right that's what we were talking about earlier with the property I'll have to look into that thanks Jane asked um what's the license model for the product I think she's talking about DPM is that right the upm is itsm based to my knowledge yeah it's in itsm or itbm uh both of those yeah okay yeah so digital portfolio management doesn't have from my understanding does not have a separate license yeah it's Foundation yeah exactly so what it is if you don't have it already in your environment you can actually obtain this through either the plug-in page or the surface now store what it does is it pretty much allows to bring DPM is um sound setting service portfolio uh workspace and what it's allowing us to do is bring together service portfolio management uh project portfolio management and application portfolio management especially when you think about like digital products and how that converges so the workspace of DPM itself has a license but um of course if you don't have PPM licensing you may not use that functionality um think of it as a digital portfolio management is how you digest the information and based on um the roles and access and the ability to create and manage records so that's how it was explained to me at least yeah and it's not it's not a something you pay for if you have itsm or it or SPM I keep on ITB apps um then you will um you you'll it'll make sense to use it and you do have to install it separately like if you install itsm DPM doesn't come with it I think in later versions it might but you have to go ahead and explicitly turn that plug-in on separately kind of like the old service portfolio management used to be John can you clarify your comment about the application Services the way it was explained to you because uh um if the CI is for example a business if you if I understand the out of the box you have a service you have a service offering you have a CI but like but you can select the business service offering in the CI field even though you're selecting it separately any other field service now does allow you to have that so if you select the business service offering and the CI field on an incident the offering depends on the app service the app Services consume is consumed or the the business app is consuming that app service you're saying that scenario would roll up to DPM what I'm saying in DPM and this way Caitlyn was demoing it the other day and she showed business applications and then in business apps there was an incident count on the operational view of a business app right so when you click on that uh Run Run tab on a business app there's incidents in there and those from what I understand those incidents come from the they Bubble Up from the app Services they don't come they're not incidents on the the business app itself like they are in APM uh I hope so I don't know yeah yeah double check with Caitlyn but in in that demo if you go back to that recording because I explicitly remember that I'm like why would you put an incident counter on on a business app when you don't do incidents against business app and then she explained that it comes from the app Services I'm like that would make a lot of sense I'm gonna have to validate that sir yeah don't we'll have to double check with Caitlyn but I'm pretty sure that's how it works yeah that would be good all right any other questions uh looks like we did we address everything in the chat I think so okay but this was great content today I can't wait to shout this out on social media because this is questions I get all the time and Eric coming from I used to work in ivanzorg as a platformer you nailed it I'm thinking yes exactly what we've we've been talking a lot at theory for a couple years now so it's really great to see the real world stuff uh appreciate that yep no problem so I just wanted to end it uh if you guys can see my screen uh with just a little bit of uh our closing here and again feel free to join the community and then uh you can provide comments on on the sessions there as well if any questions that you have come up later uh that you want to address as you watch the video uh or or you know communicate inside the The Forum you know feel free to comment in there and we will provide uh feedback as well as the the speakers here so again thank you for your time today uh sign up for future sessions uh you can get the content out there as well so download the previous sessions content and presentations and of course we post the videos here on YouTube so you can also comment there and then provide feedback to each session in the comment session so again thank you for your time and I'll turn it back to John for any last words if not we'll conclude today excellent all right good job pulling everything together Jason thanks yeah you're welcome thank you all look forward to seeing you in a future session thank you