uh hell hello everyone uh welcome to today's Digital Services Forum my weekly call uh it's a web webinar we have uh at an ongoing basis today's session will be the subject is trials and tribulations of a csdm implementer uh we've broken this up into two parts so we'll have the first session will be today and then we'll have another session I believe it's on November 27th so we'll have to take a look I think I think this it's the a month from today um so we're gonna go through that we have a few speakers today but first before I start that I just wanted to go through and welcome our new members um if you would like to share you just your name with us uh you can use it in the chat uh I believe or you can unmute yourself um and again you'll use the chat if that's appropriate if you're a new member um and John spirko leads this and I I do I I'm a co-leader with with Rachel and Charles uh as well so we are welcome you know glad to have you here today we have a really interesting set of speakers for you uh just a little bit about us uh this is a digital Services forum we really want to it's led by the Enterprise architecture team here at servicenow um our vision is really to be a leader in digital transformation uh enabling our members to drive their own digital Transformations so one of the key things is is allowing the membership to provide a feedback and uh open discussion with other members which is which is very important for this for this forum uh we'll talk about some content in various sessions shared work discussions paper uh videos uh these videos do get posted to YouTube as well so they can be watched uh subsequent to the session uh it is run by the Enterprise architecture team and then we do these bi-weekly hour-long web meetings and we bring experts from across servicenow to speak as well as from our community uh to to provide content and speak as well uh the agenda today is really talking about the first part is I brought in Jay Marathi uh he's the director of Enterprise architecture for servicenow uh so he'll be the second speaker the first speaker will be Caitlin Morse uh she'll be presenting uh digital portfolio management an early look at what's next uh and then we have three speakers after that to talk about some of the the real world examples of of applying csdm and some of the challenges that we have there and I'll let them uh also introduce themselves if we don't get to all the content today we will uh we will have the second session so feel free to join that one as well and we'll continue on this discussion it was it was a very important topic for our customers so that from our previous feedback we received a lot of of you know of feedback from the community related to this subject and so it's csdm but the real world examples of how it's applied some of the challenges and Lessons Learned there uh in Real World experience feel free to use the chat for any questions we will be monitoring the chat and we'll try to get to those questions either written form or I will try to address them as well um through the through discussion and I'll let the speakers also do that as well as as they go through their presentation so uh without further Ado let's see if I have the planning agenda here this is just us this is the steering committee it's uh Charles Rachel myself and John and then we have the next set of meetings so we'll have uh a next next session uh will be EA board and that will be with Michelle supper and Amanda Justice they'll be speaking through some architectural related EA board session content and you can see then after that we'll have the trials and tribulations part two and we'll have some the speakers that we potentially don't get to today will also present during that session as well and then we have the digital product modeling uh session in November and then we have in December the year in review so we'll be December 8th will be the last session we have this year and we will be going through the year in review of our Digital Services forum and some of the things we've we've learned and received from the community okay so let's move forward and I'm gonna stop the share Caitlyn are you out there hey yes I am I am great so I'm gonna stop sharing and let you jump in I believe if you can share the screen yeah um I don't have anything that I need to share at this point so mine will be very quick um I wanted to give a shout to this group um I know that I've presented here before in this forum around the digital portfolio management product and it being very much tied to csdm efforts so if you're on your csdm journey you can get quick value at a digital portfolio management we are currently in the process of doing some design and research work around a few features that will be coming in our next um basically two to three releases and so I'm I'm reaching out to see if anyone is interested in participating in that research so one of them is around enhancing our homepage experience and what that would entail is about an hour of your time to look at our home page and um basically answer a few questions on what you like what you don't like what might be missing how you would expect to use this things like that it's actually totally fun um so so I think that would be enjoyable and then the other um the other feature that we're doing research on is around incorporating our secops data into DPM so that entails pulling in some vulnerability response information we want to learn what kind of information would be valuable to surface in DPM what kind of actions you know they're like to be taken again we would be showing you upcoming designs and just ask you some questions about what's resonating and how you would use it things like that um and then the third one is we're also doing research around pulling in devops data so if you're familiar with our devops insights product we are starting to surface some of those key insights into digital portfolio management around like flow metrics and accelerate metrics some of those key Dora metrics and again just uh we would show you designs and ask for your thoughts and your feedback so um I wanted to just you know pull that out there I see a few that are saying that they're interested I'll also put my email in the chat um but I'll copy some of these names down thank you guys so much and I'll reach out to you to see what of those three you're interested in so thank you so much appreciate the opportunity to ask in this forum yeah thank you Caitlin appreciate that look forward to more discussion around that uh okay so I think the next speaker is Jay uh and Akash uh you're you guys are together as a team so if you want to take over the screen go for it uh I don't know which uh which one of you are going to to present but you know feel free to uh to determine that depending on uh hello everyone this is I will be me taking over the screen today we're going to be talking um to this amazing Forum about uh how we internally that's servicenow leverage or apply the csdm in architecture management uh some really quick introductions are I and J Murray I am the director for Enterprise architecture um but this is our internal practice right I've been with service model for the past four years doing a career Enterprise architect um came in to establish the internal practice and I report in through the digital Technologies chain to our CIO crispelling um I also have on the call uh one of our key practitioners uh an amazing member of my team uh Akash Chaudhary who will be working you through an actual scenario or not really a scenario but an actual taxonomy of how um you know everything ties in together but we've picked um we picked a finance based scenario which Akash will walk you through in fact uh Akash could you please quickly introduce yourself yeah hi hi everyone I'm Akash Chaudhary so I've been with servicenow for almost seven years uh and then yeah we basically have the Enterprise architecture Journey for last six seven years and with when Jay came has become very streamlined and one of our Charter is to start using our own product in a best possible way and also innovate a lot of things that looking at what Market expect from us and internally build it so I'm happy to answer any of the questions that you have on this csdm journey thank you okay let's Jump Right In folks Okay so first up I just want to talk very briefly and by the way a lot of you should should by now be aware of the csdm we've taken a look at uh the 4.0 model and that that's what we're going to use to talk to but our Focus for today being part of Enterprise architecture would be addressing largely the EA persona and also touching a little bit upon what the service owners and how they interact with the things that the Enterprise Architects will stitch together and that includes the services taxonomy that we're going to be building secondly uh we're going to go through of course how we leverage APM for managing architecture so Central to uh what we do is now now and in fact you know if you notice as a shared I'm flaunting as well which is the one of our key architecture principles is servicenow first and so therefore it does make a lot of sense for us to leverage APM and it has great strengths in terms of architecture management so we're going to just walk you through how we use it in relation to the various components that are defined in um in the csdm design stage and finally as I mentioned we'll talk you through how exactly or a scenario um or this um or specific taxonomy of how we have started to and I say started to because it's a journey um and I'll talk through some of some of the issues that we could be facing right one of them is of course the history we've had RC and DB for uh over 10 years now so there is there are some issues with how clean that data is or you know even in terms of what is a business service versus what is a technical service they all seem to be merged up or at least were until we started the effort and it's ongoing and it's huge or we're starting to clean it up and really align with the csdm as we move forward okay so with that let's quickly touch upon and again this is something that you all should be familiar with we're going to talk about the blue box here which is business capabilities business applications information objects the relationships to each other and of course then based on that right how does how a business capabilities tied to Business Services how are we deriving application Services out of business services or Business Service offerings in most cases right plus so essentially what we're going to explore is the business capability to business service and service offering um relationships and also when it comes to the applications how they are now mapped to business capabilities and require application services in order to link it back to the technical services or even the infrastructure some of which um Akash will talk to you through okay so moving forward as I mentioned earlier at servicenow we leverage APM very heavily for architecture management and I have often noted the fact that we do ourselves a bit of a disservice by calling it an application portfolio management right it's way beyond that it covers business capabilities um of course now with information objects for all the Enterprise Architects on this forum right you'll notice the bead act which is the upper hemisphere and essentially APM pretty much fully covers all that documents there what it also covers or this is our Better Together story in terms of literally the service or service ownership or Services portfolio management um or integration with the GRC right you know introducible application risk it's out of the box pretty much right so working with um with our risk groups and our GRC groups in order to bring in that aspect of the application portfolio Plus what you will see is um actually we don't have too much detail on this but maybe a subsequent session but we leverage capability-based planning heavily right and with capability based planning that gives us the ability during the planning phase to directly create demand which can then be vetted out as projects epics stories Etc direct integration between the project portfolio management between agile 2.0 with between agile safe and all the tools that we then use for the execution or implementation aspect of um of the application per se and its relationship to product so now while we're still getting on board with the old relationship between applications products and piecing that together again that's that's a future stage that we're going to be looking at what we do have though is we've uh you know being serviced now and having our own um development team within we've also started to extend APM operate to dive into making it an application life cycle management tool right because as a part of one of our key initiatives last year um we launched a cyber security initiative where we need to be aligned with uh I'm going to say 11 recent behaviors for this year and then uh 26 in 2023 and so in order to support that we needed to have a link of our application in life cycle including all the way from planning to release tracking all of the security scans looking at all of the core reviews looking at the design reviews especially when it comes to security performance and all the itabilities are there off right so um E18 actually defined what type secure software development life cycle was going to be and I've undertaken the task of being product owners to extend APM to provide that application life cycle management functionality but coming back to um coming by to be that right when it comes to business architecture I mentioned earlier we have a pretty strong business capability um or ability to model our business capabilities and that's that's what we've done um plus Central to all of this is the application portfolio as we all know we've also developed a custom integration data log because I'd say about 80 of our services or or Integrations what data services right so we've you know in order for us to be able to track the flow of data we're maintaining an integration catalog and you will see that in future versions of the product as well uh in terms of data we have fully adopted the information catalog which comes standard with the product but we've also built uh a PIR tracking tool within where we're tracking at an attribute level any PIR to the applications that um that could either store it uh consume it create it or have capabilities to update or delete it okay um and finally when it comes to technology a lot of it is about the cmdb right so there's Discovery um we're leveraging primarily a tool called Inspire designer which is a partner tool and it's available in servicenow store um or service on App Store but that's what we leverage in order to draw these or connect um these live diagrams back to our infrastructure back in the cmdb so that's where we're at as you can see a number of things are are in progress including the most important one which is down there which is the capability mapping to Business Services now we have covered this in certain areas as you will see but it's ongoing um and as I mentioned earlier there's a huge cleanup component to that in terms of truly identifying and categorizing Business Services application Services service offerings and that entire taxonomy okay moving on let's quickly talk about business architecture what do we do with API right first of all the planning portal we leverage it um to a great extent but mainly um all of our business capabilities especially the Enterprise model are now captured um in APM right and um it's it's a hierarchical view uh what you're seeing at the bottom is leveraging in spite designer again to have that you know almost that box view of the capabilities which we uh which we use specially for heat mapping after we do um capability based planning um now it says coming soon for the business capability maturity assessments but that's actually live in fact it was I I probably need to update this slide so my apologies for that but yes in terms of capability based planning we have capability assessments launched at the leaf nodes where we have a questionnaire based approach to understanding the people process technology and data data are dimensions in terms of maturity in order for us to be able to then do further planning as to which capability and which dimension needs tweaking that will spawn projects or programs for us to take care of that okay now what we're also starting to do and working with the product team is starting to look at what is truly the process CI right how do we capture process metadata and this is extremely important because there's you know constant demands for us to provide some sort of process catalog and we're looking to almost build a very similar hierarchical model as business capability but again fundamentally for the folks on this call we know that they're different right I mean process is uh the how what is the capabilities of what and we want to maintain that clear distinction so what we're working towards and in fact it's still in the definition stage is what does that process metadata look like how do we model them how do we model them as a hierarchy and then what are those relationships between the process and the capabilities the process and the applications and everything else that we need to relate to the process here um a quick look at how we do capability-based planning because I think this is important and this is tweaked a lot of interest among the Enterprise Architects right the first stage obviously is the model creation uh we used Deloitte um in order to help us with the level ones and level twos and then our own teams uh including Enterprise Architects with business Architects were missing have gone into disintegrate that further and take it up to level three and sometimes level four in order for to us to be able to truly launch the assessment which is that next step which is a bottom-up assessment of a business capabilities by people process technology and data right and um again um the maturity assessments have all been integrated into APM next what we do during the planning cycle is we provide um a template literally of um for strategic categorization right because as we create the heat Maps based on the various dimensions and you know within Sky you have the capability to switch on and off specific dimensions uh and that's again leveraging the indicator framework in order for us to see which specific Dimension needs to be tweaked along with the average capability maturity score right what we then do is provide a template uh for the planners to literally drag and drop those heat map capability boxes if you will on the diagram in order to truly put their arms around Yep this is a game changer or this is you know go to give us Market Advantage so we need to pay attention to this even though it may be yellow versus something that's post office red and it's you know either um you know it's just a commodity right where it can wait whereas we all know that you know as we enter this interesting phase uh well economics wise we don't have challenges in dollars so the prioritization and how the capabilities try prioritization is through not just the heat mapping understanding when deficiencies are but also leveraging this template that we have in order to strategically place what needs to be uplifted uh in terms of capability maturity and then the fourth stage which is once we know or once the planners uh or the service owners have an idea on what they want to tackle in a specific fiscal year that's when they directly go in and right from APM generate demand that can then be vetted and then transform into initiatives or projects so application architecture right again extremely important uh in fact this is the entire basis our whole product is called an application portfolio management so yes it is the single source of Truth for all of our applications it drives initiatives like application rationalization for that the mapping of all of these objects to the applications is extremely important specifically business capabilities right other business applications who do they integrate with right what are the information objects um and I already mentioned that we have we've established a crowd relationship with um with all the information objects remember this is at a logical level not a physical level because we're dealing with architecture okay um or rather the l1s of the architecture we're not going into the l3s where there's actual data elements or you know we don't take the information objects there yet but ask us again next year um application services this is the Crux of csdn right essentially how do we map business applications how do they spawn Services what is our thought and what are our learning uh from Mark Scott and the amazing csdn team in terms of how we're going to do this in order for it to be scalable and sustainable um I've already talked about projects and demands uh our applications are also tied to change requests and we you know being now and now we leverage uh change management as well in order to push everything that DD does to production uh I wouldn't say everything most of our portfolio um there are some that use other um toolkits but this is primarily also any devops wipelines that we create are tied very directly to the applications which in turn are tied to the products or there are that are used as a part or that represent that specific devops pipeline um of course as Enterprise architect one of the key things that we do is maintain that architecture model repository today it's all on service now it's on instance on our instance called serve and we use leverage inspired designer again to represent the diagram moving on I already talked about the integration and data um you know data architecture we're using the information object um which is standard it's out of the box also I did talk about the custom integration catalog and again um very simple but very important right we have a name and Convention established where we can very quickly track what data and you'll see here in terms of the information object what data um in the originates in a particular system and is delivered to us or is pulled by or delivered to another system so this way we know and also we know the means right um we are using SFTP and you know again I don't know if we should be but we are still using SFTP for a lot of these as you can see and this is actual live screenshot from that perspective and finally um with that what I want us to do is now dive into the core csdm topic which is how do we or how have we envisioned these various components relating to each other right let's start on the left with Business Services right so Business Services provide service offerings and each of the service operating depends on application Services okay so that's the first part that we need to um that we have understood and we've modeled it around that right moving on to the applications perspective right again now a business application will will spawn or uh it actually the business actually consumes an application service which depends on the application and a new infrastructure that it runs on and of course uh the service offering itself depends on the application services so those are the core principles that or yeah the core principles that we use as we started to model this out so with that I'm going to hand it over to um the main Akash Chaudhary to walk you through or to walk you through an actual uh taxonomy that we have um literally implemented Akash sure thanks yeah so if you look at here right so I think I think this is the in the weird side so let's let's focus on the middle box which is capability framework so as you see like you know from a capability perspective also we have broken it to our and because we've been to our capability mapping and from a planning perspective and talking to the business owner that owes a capability we have gone to a three to four level and if you look at here like it talks about and let's take an example of Finance right so everyone has Finance as a value chain but the the top level capability is financial planning and accounting right as you know there's an fpna activity every company or every organization have but but if you go for uh the next level this financial planning and accounting can be broken into financial planning Financial Accounting forecasting some other area and below this and again this is like if you look at this is like a hierarchy uh that means parent has multiple child and like long range planning is one of the example of of of the lower level capability that a paneer function has uh so how this is basically capability is mapped to our service portfolio right so you can see uh the service category is fpna but the actual service is financial planning so if you look at the earlier diagram that Jay showed is uh the so service level is financial planning and the service offering under that main service is basically long-range planning short short range planning or forecasting and some planning functionality so the service and service offering and they both are supported by a by a business application right it's a business application in our world is sap bpc um or going forward is going to be Anna plan or depending on what you use uh if you use Hyperion so again if you see it here that basically clears there's a linkage between a service and service offering uh on a business application sap and this application eventually is linked to uh link to an application service so I think this is a real yeah so if you look at here uh the end of as in the diagram and then application services bpc and because this supports the application and then behind the scene under bpc you will say uh everything like the servers the app server the database and everything which is basically all linked together so this basically ends if you look at from a from a capability uh to service and to application service this is a one code example uh okay can you go to the next screen please sure and I don't know why my PowerPoint is everything oh yeah yeah so if you look at here this is again a screenshot from a system so you can see like the application service or sap bpc but if you look at these boxes here uh you can see like you know write form is supported on asset you have here you have the database that suppose a particular business application uh the app server the load balancer and all this functionality so you can see from the 3D perspective everything eventually drill down and that's where you are so basically this is from systematically from Discovery they capture everything and this is basically all linked together uh to a specific application services okay so what we're going to do is just sorry there's one question it talks about are we using a standard capability model or have you developed a one distinctive service now so the answer is we we uh we took standard model but then we have broken it down so the idea is like you know you start from somewhere uh because when you go to the business you don't understand what you're doing so what we did we took a standard model but then based on our domain experience all our easier team has basically taken and basically switched to basically for specific functions so we created separate for sales marketing uh finance and then we go with their with the with the business owners or the with the actual business function we basically give them a benchmark and then we we took that and we can make it a further right because eventually we have to uh some of the out of the box functionality or some of the capability model that off that comes out of it it doesn't have uh all the detail based on the organization and based on like on your type of business so basically you have to tweak it and we basically keep on tweaking it every year because our capability model is also forward looking for example maybe we are not in a we are a sales company but when we start doing a plg motion uh or we start in an e-commerce or some kind of other business model so you have to also start looking at forward looking function so the answer is yeah you have to tweak it based on your knowledge of the business and work with your business partner to basically drill down further because eventually if you want to really use the capability model for future State planning it has to align to your business business functions and and the business that you are in right and so basically you know just to summarize we started uh with Deloitte Who provided us with a standard cookie cutter model and then we work towards customizing it towards the SAS company that we are and um essentially tailoring that capability framework to how it applies to us as a company all right so next what I wanted to also do is we know that a large part of our landscape and yours includes SAS applications right so in that case you know the whole linkage so where does the application Services which are meant as that um that um link between infrastructure and the application where does that go in this case typically and the CSM describes it very well is that now um the service constitutes an endpoint or a service endpoint uh for any SAS program and what we've done here is broken down a very simple uh use case of um of Enterprise collaboration as a capability and again Enterprise collaboration but this is more the services taxonomy where we've defined everything from hey the technical operations is the portfolio that's led by um now senior repeat over Mappy right um then we get into what is the service domain right it's it employee services from there we've defined Enterprise collaboration as a service category and each of what you're seeing there whether it's content management whether the digital signage social collaboration web conferencing all of these are now our business services each of them further for example if you take web conferencing because it's the most easily understood right uh zoom and WebEx are two applications today that are I'm gonna say that are accepted as standard for um servicenow usage okay so based on that if we disintegrate that further into how does Zoom translate into an application service it's the end points zoom.us for uh for a zoom.in for India and those essentially represent application services that way we can track um or we can complete have the complete picture even when it comes to SAS applications as we model out our services okay and that everyone is pretty much what we had today in terms of applying the csdm through architecture management within servicenow so we'll just stop here for any questions so Jay there are a couple of questions in the chat I think one question is uh what if you wanted teams as both as a messaging services and a web conferencing services can they both be assigned to one offering now the answer is yes yeah is there any other question or may I feel I think Todd has a point that we have loaded entire apqc and yeah and I think that's correct because we have the same challenge because again you know business users goes to some of the conference and they come back and so I am looking at apqc what apqc offers is more it's more of a process it's more of a process angle and from a business capability perspective it's much more higher because for for even for a level three capability there will be multiple process that defines it planning is a good example because if you're taking a planning long-range planning different department does planning differently because based on uh supply chain side or or maybe a revenue side ride and those basically covered part of apqc so the way we look at it when it comes to business capability it has four dimension people process technology and data and the process angle is basically what apkc can cover right so you can always use apkc for basically validating the the process but let's if we start using apqc as a business capability then you end up with a lot of capability and a lot of redundant and it's too detailed for business to even start you can't do plan at that level so here's your credit I think that that that's a challenge we see with apqc yeah but I'm also going to say that you know it's a it's a good way to start to look at how you're going to manage or how you're going to build out your capability model in case you're looking at it right it gives you an idea as to how a taxonomy can be organized or as you do that always bear in mind that as Akash mentioned apqc by Design is a process framework so how do you differentiate between the what which is what a capability represents to the how which is what a process represented Okay so with that I'm handing it back to you Jason okay great thanks uh you there's a couple more questions I don't know if we addressed uh some of them are coming through but I don't know if you guys can see the chat window um uh I think let me see if we address these looks like some of them are our statements too so sorry Michael is a question on custom integration catalog day I think he's asking uh if custom integration catalog is a custom CI class that you have created yes we have we've created it as a CI primarily so that we can establish those relationships and um that helps us do very quick diagramming so for instance uh when we use this spy when we drag and drop let's say an application like workday and we expand it out at that point based on the integration catalog and the creative relationships you can actually see almost that you know spider diagram render itself to show which are all the systems that it integrates with um and therefore we have created it as a CI as opposed to just a table yeah and Jay the other part of the question was is that a function of inspired designer an answer is no in order for inspired designer to use it we have that's what Jay explains because it's now is part of a CI inspired designer can consume it but it's not a functionality of inspired designer okay uh other questions uh you can also come off mute if you'd like uh and ask the question as well if you if you need to I believe we have thank you Yeah question is there a diagram that was shown earlier had the uh swimlings and at the top was the portfolio followed by the service domain I get the service category comes from APM service service offering application service is all part of csvm portfolio same thing service domain is service domain in that drawing supposed to be the taxonomy or the csdm or is that part of APM or something made up um so the service domains per se right when we started out the product that we were starting to look at was service portfolio management right now um that is part of the um digital portfolio workspace um so that that's where the identification of service domains and that taxonomy comes through so no it's not a part of APM it's a part of the digital portfolio workspace okay thank you for that where would the taxonomy though per csdm fit into that swiveling diagram oh that's a good question um don't know yet but let me let us get back to you on that all right thank you and then maybe uh you know whether the autonomy fits in if someone from the csdm team um Can can answer that would be good because uh and you're right I mean it's it's something that uh you know we haven't truly considered with that level of detail as to uh where it ties back or the services taxonomy ties back to the CSA okay appreciate it and I I know Jay that you you know we also have some experience internally on some of the challenges with just at a very high level of deploying csdm on now right so maybe just provide a little bit of kind of context into that and where you guys are evolving you know frankly what's working and what isn't and absolutely you know where we're evolving from an EA perspective on now with csdm and um maybe just some some thoughts around that no no absolutely and I mentioned this earlier right it's a journey and it's a long journey for us right it's made long by the fact that we have historical event okay um service now um of course was one of the first to adopt the service management yeah right so creation of Business Services creation of Technical Services Etc and as we did that um was was a csdm existing at that point possibly but not a whole lot of attention was paid to that so we're now in the process and our journey therefore is longer because of the the debt that we've developed in terms of the data okay so in order for us to now redo this we've got to literally look at every service look at any incidents or or any other related objects to the service and as we start to design what the future state looks like is going to have to be some migration efforts so what we're doing is um especially when it comes to what we understand well we're embarking on those Journeys um so I'm pretty much simultaneously where we're looking at making those relationships and essentially driving towards the CSA but again for everyone on this call this csdm and its application is definitely a journey okay so um the the closer attention to detail that you play as you're starting out um that would be a huge benefit for people who are just you know who have a green field for others uh you might want to start with a very detailed analysis of what you have in your cmdb and then phasing it out accordingly and then do you guys have a uh some some content that could be shared with the community related to uh some of the things that that you know the best practice is things that the EA team on now is done with with this that could be potentially shared as well we help some uh let us get back to you on okay yeah I mean you know we're using this primarily internally right so um yeah we'll get back to you on on whether we can you know no problem thanks it would be more around the Lessons Learned things like that versus the actual structure and architecture but yeah that'd be great yeah okay so have another question I was asking for a chat but would like to expand on the answer please thank you the question that was asked was centered around the architect's role compared to the application owner service owner's role in APM historically at least in our organization these service owner or the application owner was the portfolio lead right that's the person that knew all things about the application while that role still exists going forward using APM I'm wondering how the architect role is when it's related to the application owner role in other words doesn't the architect play a larger role in APM than the application owner which may seem counter-intuitive to most people or am I wrong um so and again it varies with how you're organized but to your point at least both the rules exist and they're fundamentally different right to your point our service owners are also you know essentially they're also application owners right so anything related to application in terms of incidents and and again through the CSA image it's tied back to the services so that's why the incidents um and everything else comes in but fundamentally we look at the application owner or the service owner as someone who's the uh you know who's the point of accountability for all things related to that application and the associated services that the application provides okay this could include enhancements development um uh incident uh you know resolution of incidents or defects or anything else that's associated with that so the service owner primarily plays that role of almost the uh as you said right the general manager for that specific set of services and um has the ownership of the application what is the role of the Enterprise architect the Enterprise architect essentially works with the service owner to ensure that the applications themselves are current and they play more of a role in terms of ensuring that whenever there are initiatives whether it's integration with other applications or when there is a new information objects being introduced as part of initiatives that's the role of the architect to keep that landscape if you will updated for the service owners so the the Enterprise architect in fact plays a supporting role to the service owner I I hope I'll answer that that's the way that we operate at this point yeah wow that was a great answer thank you so much I think there's another question that taught us on similar lines on what it is is it is not a difference between EA and uh and the solution of product architect an answer is yes because again we are in that Journey uh again going forward right so if you look at the solution Architects a lot of uh area doesn't have a solution argument depending on how big the organizations are so we basically rolled out something called a mashup architect where we are basically identifying solution architects who are part of their different DT teams uh and and they also we work as a closed mesh right because uh EF plays more uh supervised later on and more more like cross-functional role in solution architect are basically on at a very uh the Tactical level and another thing is not all teams are solution architecture so for example if you look at the marketing Technologies right and I was given an example of puppet strategy and it's not even service now is a common problem if you look at any other companies you have marketing which they have whole marketing technology team itself those are a part of a business right if you really want an inventory of a centralized inventory of all the application and some of the SAS application which is basically a very Standalone application and in that case you really don't need a solution architect or even the service owner is the business owner could be a service owner because it's not supported by it organization or any other technical organization right because the self self servicing tool and in that case even from a visibility perspective that's why EA step into the role because we are involved right from an evolution perspective so we are we make sure like you know if business is also having acquiring another tool we capture it uh and that's why APM inventory is is much accurate uh and and that's what it is like in some teams says there will be platform or solution architect but not all team will have that right and then that anything that missed through the crack that's why the ear function becomes important to have a visibility across the whole life cycle of an every application and services okay uh thank you guys uh we have a few more questions in this chat but what else maybe if you guys want to stay on Jay and Akash and and just monitor that to see if we can verbally address those I want I do want to leave uh a few minutes to introduce a few next speakers that we have on the line uh David Stefan Barry can't and Eric door uh they're here uh from uh the servicenow community and wanted to uh give you guys an overview of some of the content they have and then possibly talking through the second session part two and extending some of that so again thank you guys appreciate your uh your time Jay and Akash it's been a very good uh good very informative really appreciate it uh excellent thank you for having us you're welcome so I guess that so David do you want to go first yeah I'll go ahead and jump in I mean I'm I'm expecting um Eric to like interrupt and agree and disagree because this is the this is the part of the discussion where where there's going to be some uh some really good um thought processes around um around how you want to to put the pieces together hold on see if I can get my there we go so uh and this will this will also mesh a little bit with where uh Jay and Akash were going um a lot of the times that a lot of times I talk with customers about the implementation of the csdm functions they're they get a little bit bound up on on uh on putting everything in the data model and and forget the Practical side um because the Practical side has everything to do with why why are you building this um and I'm sure I get annoying with my customers as well because it the the question is gonna is gonna come up continuously what is it that you're trying to answer when you when you manage to to move this um uh move this information around right so I came up with a few slides and and I've been building this deck for months now on on pushing through on the on the functions now um I'm gonna apologize a little bit right service mapping is a is a servicenow product but if you think of service mapping as a as a um as a process what you're trying to do is connect those small application functions to the application service so you can see this from an IT View this gives that service layer the the ability to then connect to both the the um the business service functions and also the business application functions that gets you to business capability and and some of the management functions right how does the business operate as it's described within the uh within technology right so if you look at the the Practical function of what you're looking for um um I would say most if not all customers start with focus on the technology what is it that's out there running because I'm talking about servers I talk about servers all the time I'm talking about Network equipment um how is it used now what is it that you're doing when you're mapping this stuff or when you're trying to put it back into that into that service portfolio and the the first item becomes right the outcome the idea here is you're looking for service availability right an increase in service availability and visibility into service availability so when you think of event management connecting to this you have a data flow from your infrastructure up to your application service so you can think about what that outage looks like but now here comes the why why do you care it's not just I.T that actually cares about about that outage happening it's someone in the business and I I mean I'll just I'll reflect back to Akash and Jay right the the the management layer above you know well what is the position of the Enterprise architect well in in this case the Enterprise architect may not care about the outage but they might right I mean if you look at the at the severity okay now you're starting to get into the minutia of the data here right how severe is this outage how um uh how do you know whether or not you need to go up to the base business capability owner to say we have an outage well it's criticality who decides criticality well your business application owner your capability owner your business service owner the the the offering for that business service are all linked to the data that you get from your it function all of these orange boxes that that's probably not even understood by your by your senior executives but you want to tell them what's going on well sure um it's a Verizon how to add an outage um day and a half um of just complete missing right who's gonna know well I I would hope that you've got a function there that that that that puts all of these pieces back together and uh I think a lot of the a lot of the answers to the questions that I would put in the chat as they were coming in were you know honestly it almost doesn't matter who you put in these positions and what you what you can see with these um of the outcomes here it's how is it that you want to um you want to tell people what's happening to your infrastructure or how are you enabling what's happening in infrastructure to what the business desires actually are uh and it's one of the main reasons I put a lot of the a lot of the uh the business portfolio on here as well because they we have some customers that don't do anything within um within the APM and capability structure because they they don't conceive of how they run their business everything is about this is what I'm trying to deliver now this is a little bit of a taste and and happy to get some feedback from any of you if you if you want to see more I've got a lot more use cases around the around the data flow and and what this means because the each time you build one the next step away from just a pure thought process around um around how you organize from an incident response also gets you information about things like change management right it's the same level of impact only now it's not an outage now it's who gets to approve and how do you decide who gets to approved well I think that's going to be a a an enormous business question why do you care well someone changing something innocuous in infrastructure may be affecting more than one application service meaning it's affecting more than one business service right and that's how you start to do the Practical side of organizing and I think this is back to um I'll steal some of some of Eric's slender here right the the the Practical approach to what it is that you're building depends very much on all of the whys that you're going to put in there all right I'm going to pause for a minute and see if anybody has any has any questions about about like either data flow or purpose around the around the Practical approach to csdm yeah again feel free to uh uh put something in the chat or you can go off mute as well if you have a question I'd like to clarify my question that I put in the chat please sure go ahead yes the question with regards to the csdm model it has really Harkens back to the other conversation by Jay with the Architects at 8pm because the csem is built and then APM if you're using both you know APM and you've built the csdm and you have DPM and you have SPM it all comes together uh in APM there are two related lists on the application services that are for associating the software models and the hardware models those have to be manually Associated today it's a service mapping automatically add those models to those related lists so when that information is serpented up in the technology portfolio uh the way it's built to be looked at and leveraged for like for example application wraps or do those two related lists on that application service form still have to be manually updated I realize this is a very technical question but it's an important one because if you're going to purchase item visibility and get service mapping that is a big deal trying to manually map those models to the application service versus having that being done automatically with something like service service mapping yeah work in progress um I I mean because the the answer is is both yes and no I mean it's uh the the ability to sort of glean information from the um from the product as discovered and then linked through service mapping right I mean the the data is there there are some functions there some of the functions are not working as well as they as they should be so that's mostly where that work in progress is um for very large Enterprises in it and I work in the in the vle space um you're absolutely right right doing this manually is is unlikely to be a winning strategy uh and there's a there's a lot of work going on today to um automatically enable the TPM function uh and there is a core philosophical problem from the technical side around what this means um and I don't want to make this more complex than than what you've laid out but the um I mean the philosophy around what it means to have a specific software model in use right is it installed does that mean it's in use because it can not be on the on the catalog it it can it can be not in the catalog on the operating system because you know Java is just a bunch of files it doesn't matter that that it's in the catalog right so it could be not installed but in use it could be installed but not in use right and it and it gets it gets really hairy uh and I I think the the biggest value that we get to eventually is when we start bringing in some of the um some of the later components I mean I know that cstm4 is is still draft and not actually published but when you look at where where all of this is going from a um uh from an sdlc component level the ability to know what your organization has built and then delivered and the linkages there that you want to get from your entire uh requirements to deploy function inside that model says okay this is really the the software model that you care the most about unless you're going to pull in third party right what does it mean to be running Oracle um some of those components so that there's a there's a tremendous difficulty in gleaning the right information uh but again that's part of that part of that work in progress does that that help yeah I think that's exactly right I saw in the chat earlier somebody said I regretted uh inserting the model what Jay was talking about to start building out you know the uh the modeling you know in slang Etc and it seems to me that you have a choice let's assume it was no longer work in progress and you uh were able to automatically pull those software models and Hardware models in with something like service mapping and then you pull them all in well you get what you ask for right because now you got a bunch of noise things you don't necessarily care about and now you're stuck with removing a bunch manually potentially that you don't want to see so where is that I think you're right it's going to be you know pull in what you want to see and leverage that I mean the obvious benefit is you know the software got installed there's a Discovery Model whether you created a software model and linked it via dmap or not is a decision some you might some you might not and then you benefit with TPM because you could say well you know like Dev and test and prod application Services they may each have 5 10 25 servers Associated within each one of those has software in the models and you can see the different versions on across that landscape I mean I think that was the point that the Architects would look at that information and say okay what are we doing here why are we going to uh upgrade this other business app when it's app Services showing us all this stuff that is either end of life or it's going to be end of life soon yep so it's so so much so much so much of the decisions that you make and and that's actually why this presentation started with practical right the the the ability to recognize you know if you turn it on you drown in the data um so you need to you need to be careful about how you ask the questions uh and I I would even say that that the the first time that we come across this is less about models and more about technology Services um so if you look at the relationships from your your tech service offering for authentication you're going to have a relationship from authentication to absolutely everything right I mean if it's active directory is your is your core um your core auth provider it I mean it will touch absolutely everything um and and years ago actually I I ca it was talking to another customer uh in the airline industry and and their change management um approach was basically if you're talking about the top 20 business applications that that are that you know that you may have some technical function you need to open a change on the entire world knows what those are right I mean everybody has the understanding of what it is and so it's a little bit less important to have all of those minute pieces because it'll affect everything that the business does um on the flip side you know that doesn't mean that you ignore authentication um there's a retail organization that had a had an outage two months ago three months ago three months ago that literally shuttered all of their stores from authentication right so that that criticality and this is where the the Practical APM comes from right how do you decide what that criticality is these are you know these are you know death of a store kinds of events you don't have to tell everybody what that looks like you know if authentication doesn't work nobody's working um so yeah I mean that some of the some of the data volume decisions need to be made in both directions one you need to find the gold and then two you need to make sure that you're not you're not drowning in in everything yeah makes sense thank you so much yeah no you bet hey thank you guys yeah David thank you appreciate that I just wanted to kind of wrap up I know we're a little over a few minutes so again thank you all for for spending the time and going over a little bit uh we do appreciate that we do try to stay on time but I wanted to make sure we got uh to to the answers here because I think they were really critical so I appreciate it to all the speakers today thank you uh just a a quick uh kind of closer closing uh Point here to go back to what we have coming up so the next meeting is the digital product operating model uh and John's going to go through that uh we're gonna have the second I'm sorry that's November 10th we're gonna have trials and tribulations part two so David and and Eric and team will be here uh hopefully to uh to give us more detail and some other use cases and go a little bit deeper into this uh because I think it's such an interest as you can see at the top uh the number one interest uh topic for our Forum has been csdm examples so we want to um address that and ensure we're getting giving you guys the content that most interests you so again thank you very much really appreciate it and look forward to our next session and look forward to you joining foreign thank you very much