hi there i'm claudia hoskey from fedinsider and on behalf of the george washington university center for excellence in public leadership and servicenow i'm pleased to welcome you to today's webinar i.t modernization turning buzzwords into action please type your questions and comments into the q a pod if we don't get to them during today's webinar we'll share them with our speakers so they can follow up also take note of the resources tab on the left side of your screen to download today's slides and some additional materials we offer live captioning for all of our webinars follow along with us today use the hyperlink under the live captioning or cart tab above the slides we'll have the full transcript available in the next day or two and to earn training credit for today's webinar you'll need to answer all polling questions throughout and now let me turn over the reins to our moderator jonathan album federal cto at servicenow to begin today's discussion take it away jonathan thank you claudia good afternoon everybody uh i'm i feel really fortunate to be today's moderator uh prior to joining servicenow i worked in the federal government for many years as a chief information officer and throughout my federal career my teams and i always seem to be on a mission to update and modernize i.t systems in our agencies we wanted to decommission legacy systems and ultimately our goal was to digitally transform our agencies and from initiatives like cloudburst to data center consolidation to today's xero trust there's always a lot of buzzwords and activities around these it monetization topics there are more gao reports then there's room to list both the executive branch and congress have continually across administrations across parties emphasize the importance of modernization and just recently two senators introduced a new bill called the legacy i.t reduction act that would require agencies to create an inventory of their legacy systems create modernization plans and task the office of management and budget to issue guidance including defining exactly what a legacy system is that can be a confusing conversation sometimes so today we have three great experts two of which are recent federal 100 winners uh with us to share thoughts on this topic and together we're going to discuss the factors that impede uh efforts to modernize i.t systems in government we're going to try and identify the quantified benefits to overhauling outdated legacy systems we're going to define the modernization opportunities that became really clear to all of us during the pandemic and then lastly we're going to evaluate the impact of modernization on customer experiences so i want to begin by having our panelists introduce themselves so as i call your name please share a little bit of your background and uh have the kinds of work you're doing relative to ip modernization today let's begin with hillary england thanks so much hi everyone my name is hillary ingraham i am the director of the refugee processing center for the department of state's bureau of population refugees and migration so i am a humanitarian and a refugee person i have over 20 years of experience in in that field um both in terms of the government and non-governmental positions so you may be wondering why in the world is she on this panel today um but what i have been doing is currently i i lead the refugee processing center which provides all the it and operational support for the us refugee admissions program and i work with a team of fantastic i.t professionals and over the past few years we have replaced our 20-year legacy case management system for processing refugees with a new cloud-based system that's used by all of our partners around the world we're leveraging state department secure cloud platform which has been part of state's overall modernization efforts so look forward to talking to you about my experience there thank you thank you hillary next i'd like to have dr camille t jones introduce herself good afternoon and good day good people i like you said i'm dr camille jones and i too have uh wow look thinking about it over two decades of experience out here it makes you fix ages you a little bit but i began my career in the consulting world coming from the ranks of ibm and deloitte my my first position outside of graduation was with saic and i joined the ranks of the navy erp project and worked with a lot of sap brace modules i spent over a decade with dlt and then migrated over to the department of commerce and the u.s census bureau where i was brought on as the first business transformation officer of the bureau and with there we were looking to modernize how we do things how to capitalize on the rich history that exists in government practices but um provide a welcome mat for us to step into the new age of how things are going to need to be done so i've introduced a great deal of automation processes retiring a number of legacy systems and most recently i've introduced ai and blockchain technology at census so that we have a better chance of capturing on the moment incidents and events that occur that require immediate attention in the forms of occupational health on the job but in my role as the assistant division chief i oversee our safety workers compensation personal property and torch claim as well as well as our occupational health unit and occupational health unit and employee assistance program um but there is a delay in how we can respond to the customer's needs those customers being internal and external and i felt like there was something we could do about that so i participated in attending some industry days and just finding out what was out there because i feel like even in my seat as a federal um employee i have a diligence to be innovative to maximize and be a good steward of taxpayer dollars and i know that the way to do that is by embracing new age and do wave modernize technology to get the job done so i'm so excited to be here with my fellow colleagues and i'm looking forward to a great and in-depth conversation of the way forward moving today well um thank you camille and i i referenced the two fed 100 winners at the beginning uh both camille and hillary um were fed 100 winners this year and you know as we um listen to your comments and experience today to the audience just recognize we're talking to some of the top leaders in the in the federal government that is and that is not to exclude our next uh um presenter uh ted occata ted please go ahead and introduce yourself hi good afternoon everyone uh ted o'connor the chief technology officer here at fema um and yeah congratulations to uh hillary and dr jones as well um uh both i think this last year um well census regularly uh but uh with the refugee processing center fema had of course as some of you may know a lead role in actually coordinating a lot of the resettlement on a rapid basis for the refugees that were exiting out of afghanistan and so um we've had the pleasure and the privilege of partnering with state this past year and and with census regularly as we start to look at how we measure community resiliency how we look at vulnerabilities of populations that are underserved and so we can target the kind of assistance more effectively of fema the purpose of what we do is to help people before during and after disaster is very simple and with a very straightforward people first strategy and that is absolutely never a buzzword we should always be people and citizen-centric in how we support our citizens and disaster survivors very often on the worst days so anyway privilege to be here it's been uh an amazing uh decade um as the first executive uh cto in many ways crafting uh an entire i.t strategy to support uh those mission mandates from congress and from the president so back to you sir and uh good to be here thank you ted um i want to begin with you if you if you don't mind uh you know we you mentioned the term buzzwords and that's what we're here to talk about today moving from buzzwords into action and having myself served in the government for a long time i heard a lot of them we mentioned some in the beginning they come from the companies that work with us they come from the external i.t environment they come from from all over but you know but buzzwords are not we know moving the government to digital technologies emerging technologies can save taxpayer dollars we we can do better cyber security and the way citizens interact with their eight with the government it's going to be improved but it's very hard to modernize it systems in the government so ted you know let's kick things off with you today and why do you think it's so hard and what are the what are the key factors you think that are impeding progress so often yeah that's a great question um and um i think it's it's one of these things where uh the precision of terms is really important um and i think that that gets to the heart of this very the theme here because when we get off of the focus of outcomes for example and that and that's never about a buzzword right uh we fundamentally within uh fema ask you know what what is the outcome uh for a citizen or survivor what is the outcome for uh our state and local tribal territorial partners um and what what are the decisions we make to either move people or move money resources to meet that need for that outcome uh and then what are the factors we make uh to use to to make that decision uh you can make a decision um from the seat of your pants or you can you can actually be evidence-based you can you can look at analytics for example or some product something as simple as a set of courses of action uh or you know a graph or a map uh but regardless a decision will be made and the the challenge at the federal level and i think we sort of speak uh here within the national capital region at the federal level but decisions are made all throughout the nation i mean we have decentralized government we have a ninth and tenth amendment so states make a lot of decisions right we have a lot of entities we have the private sector that make decisions that generate outcomes and so um ultimately um we we can make decisions uh simply because of experience or we can augment that with some form of analytics therefore the kind of data that drives uh that particular product uh and then ultimately the systems that support that data and that analytics and you mentioned a couple things that can test that like cyber security and so forth and those are really relevant those are uh uh uh in some ways an outlier that has now become the center um uh uh maybe a decade and a half ago you you would not see uh the kind of threat that cyber security now poses to just normal functioning uh mechanisms of government as we've uh modernized created efficiency and effectiveness through uh internet-based delivery mechanisms web-based uh government solutions but now that's being contested uh by nation-state actors that would do us uh ill and so those things i can focus on generally but it really comes down to um focusing on those core outcomes and i think he just wanted to interject so back to you well i was going to say those are those are excellent points around cyber security and how they impact the mission and uh hillary i'm wondering if you could share a little of your perspective with the with the refugee system that you're responsible for and work on how does today's cyber security environment impact the way you've had to do your work great question thank you yeah i mean definitely one of the driving forces for us in terms of working so hard and prioritizing the modernization of our system was because of knowing the current cyber security risks and challenges and we were on a custom-built platform a legacy system that had been around about 20 years and we knew that that was not the system that that was going to provide both the value to our users around around the world as well as the system that provided the security that we needed with current risks and current challenges and so part of our big driver as we move to modernize and build a new system was ensuring it was on a modern platform and ensuring that we had cyber security controls built in from the beginning really looking at the specific risks and concerns related to the platform that we operate so you know i just i think it's it's great that you're doing that from the beginning and that i think a real change um over the past you know five seven eight years when i when i served as a cio in government cyber security uh wasn't was viewed by the programs i work with as an impediment often and how can we avoid these controls how can we make it simpler to use the system you know it's somewhere you know in the in the middle now or at least there's a recognition as you were just describing these controls are very important and they impact your ability to deliver so i i appreciate your your comments there camille from your point of view and your role at census bureau uh are are there human factors that may impact our ability to to modernize think so and it's since the good thing about us is that we are recognizing um when those shortcomings arise you will always have the benefit of having those agencies who are lucky luckily to retain talent for an extended period of time that institutional knowledge but sometimes we have to recognize when that institutional knowledge is stalling the um adaptation of new modernized technology and a new way of doing things and that human factor of almost like protecting of my turf or my legacy this is what we've done this is what um this is what we've built this is what has been good to us throughout the years sometimes stall the input the um the opportunity for advancement and a lot of times that is crippled by fear um fear of change fear of the unknown the uh fear of being willing to pivot with the times but i will say a census we've done a great deal of trying to push past that i think it was that pandemic that helped us a great deal to really accelerate cloud after adoption and that pace continues to be slow but we understand it's critical to the modernization of federal taxes practice if we are to keep up with modern day times there is always going to be a group that has a mindset of this is the way we've always done it and there has to be someone who recognizes that factor that the wit this is the way all we've always done in mindset will prevent you and your agency from really advancing and enhancing your capabilities and it will also stall others from wanting to join in with you um i tell people all the time don't be blockbuster there was an opportunity where blockbuster was the absolutely cutest kid cutest guy at the block hottest kid in town just where everybody wanted to be every saturday night we even went upstairs to pay seven dollars for twizzlers and then this not so cool kid nobody really knew about came over to blockbuster and said hey i think if we come together we can make something big happen and that not so cool kid was netflix and blockbuster says nah nobody will ever want you they'll always want me everybody will always want to be kind and rewind and ask yourself today how many of you have entered a blockbuster and that's the important analogy to carry with you into these meetings especially those of you who sit at the tables of influence and the tables where you can stimulate and influence change that acts individuals do they want to be blockbuster if not come along because it's going to take human participation to advance and enhance where we go next that will be able to tell the next chapter of government technology implementation camille that's really uh really an inspiring story you think about i don't want to be blockbuster i think there's only one blockbuster left in the entire country somewhere yeah i think it's in minnesota i think it's in minnesota but it's holding on it's holding on so but you know great point you know you have to take some risk and personally to change it's not necessarily easy to do it but you mention it and hillary i want to pivot pivot to you on this you mentioned camille the pandemic and the fact that it required it forced a lot of change on all of us in so many aspects of our lives but certainly the way we interact with technology and how we interact with uh systems so now we're thinking about and how people interact with their government so uh well the hillary will the pandemic spurred adoption of new technologies you know my legacy migrations and the mission you know always offers room for new innovations speaking about your programs at the state department hillary are there mission imperatives that are also driving new technologies 100 i mean it it comes down to the mission right and and the technologies need to support the mission that we're doing if they're going to be um the technologies that will be used and will be important for the critical work of government and so uh on our side i mean first and foremost being using modern technology needs to and should allow us to be able to adapt to changing program objectives we need to be able to deliver deliver deliver and the use of modern technologies and modern platform needs to help us be able to do that and that's been critical for us in terms of new policy new programs being able to adapt to them quickly and be able to have the i.t capability to respond fast ted mentioned earlier the work that both fema and state department has done and department of homeland security more broadly has done as it relates to responding to afghans afghan evacuation and then the resettlement of over 70 000 afghans off us military bases to resettlement communities throughout the country and one of the ways that we were able to respond that quickly was was the use of cloud technology the use of cloud platforms that were already in place and being able to make changes to those platforms to be able to support um the processing the work that needed to be done at each of the bases and then the resettlement of afghans to local communities throughout the country and i'm confident that if we didn't have modern technologies in place that we could adapt quickly and deliver quickly we would not have been able to respond to that emergency um with the pace and the scale that we did well uh a great example and i know that the state department used a lot of uh cloud platforms a lot of low code platforms to quickly create applications and capabilities they were able to move very quickly both during the afghan resettlement year described but also in the early days of covet so there's some really great stories in in the state department about exactly what you what you shared um ted uh in one of our prep calls you spoke um you know about how technology really is essential to fema's mission i liked how you framed it before you know this is the worst day of people's lives perhaps and they need someone there to help them and you know that's the mission you state you stated it so eloquently uh it took can you talk with two to us a little bit about the way technology makes that support possible yeah i'm gonna comment second on on what hillary said um because that triggered a thought around that but you know um i think at the bottom line uh we're in a people business you know within within the government and whether um something's in a sudden onset disaster happened or whether you're just you know um you're experiencing a census uh uh uh surveyor right or or an internal stakeholder utilizing census data or partnering with the state department um we are we're we're really people first and people-centric um and that's been uh a an important theme for our administrator um who's been leading the charge on uh uh people first and so an implication of that concept is um in in the new white house order for example on customer experience you know it doesn't matter what our websites do whether we like uh sort of the design of the system um it the only uh individual that really matters is the opinion of a disaster survivor or citizen in the case of fema in other words you know how we manage our call centers or our systems uh our intake um what is that experience actually like for that citizen so um i i think what has happened um particularly because of coved um is sort of flip the script towards not what we think or not what either government staff or the contractors think about the system in their evaluation or system design design matters certainly design needs to be secure so this idea of secure by design but we have to be careful because while we have to ensure that we move for example security leftward in the process at the end of the day our opinions don't matter what matters is what that citizen that disaster survivor thinks about as they interact with a particular system or our state local partners interacting with um a system or disaster survivor calling into a call center that is what ultimately matters i think one of the things i will also add in the impact on technology is that precisely the partnership that we have with the state department and with homeland security with our immigration partners and processing partners within dhs was the ability to rapidly federate and unite data for meaningful products i remember during um the time where it was really probably the most intense segment of i think 2020 uh and 2021 with regards to covet we were tasked by the white house to generate composite reports for the national security council we had to federate data across just not only state department the diplomatic units of the federal government but hhs and cdc and nih uh for these reports and the challenge was uh you know a lot of these systems that were not modernized we had to effectively extricate or extract transform load that data into a form that could easily be brought in into a meaningful understandable and concise report up to the white house and i'll tell you that um that was not easy but uh to your point i think jonathan that that covet really helped force that because it made it a mission imperative uh and uh and the results were actually um uh transformative and uh and meaningful and that data flow did uh uh go up to all the stakeholders that needed to see that back to you thank you um you know it's it is remarkable um how much changed because of covet and you know one of the one of the areas that i think you know has evolved tremendously and you see it in the executive order that you described on customer experience is the focus on thinking about the customer first and we've had human-centered design and other things in the past but i feel like there's been a real re-emphasis in that eo about thinking about programs that cut across agencies just like you were describing but from the from the uh individual's point of view not the individual agency program requirements you know the eo talks about uh life events and you know if you experience poverty or if you experience a disaster that's been there there's many if you're a veteran transitioning from uh service into veteran status you know that what are all this all of the agency programs and all of the agencies that you have to interact with in all the systems that really requires thinking about government from outside of government into government we've always been thinking about government first and figure out how to make it accessible and available as a as an afterthought so i really love your example ted because it it demonstrates that this change is really happening and happening in some some significant significant ways so i want to build on that this this theme about customer experience um you mentioned the executive order the pr presence management agenda touches on this too uh you know it's really about improving interactions with with government and interagency collaboration as you described and camille i'm wondering if you could talk to us a little bit you know from uh from a human-centered design perspective a human perspective like you were described before how do you get people engaged you know i think everybody loved your example with with the blockbuster take you know and netflix take a risk but how do you pull people in you know more so than you know just uh telling them what's there how do we engage them really so i think that you have to come from a place of extending invitations um not to be a part of something but to welcome them to the conversation of innovation informing the putting out a call of action almost that we're looking for transformative um thought leaders who'd like to join us and really extend that invitation to welcome your entire workforce to be stakeholders in the strategic plan and the mission forward that's how you get buy-in because people feel like they have a value component added because they're they're they've they've given input to what's next they have some connection to the road ahead and i think that that from a human perspective when i feel welcomed i feel invited i feel like there's a value in my offerings i want to participate i want to know more i want to go that extra mile to learn perhaps something new to embrace um if there needs to be a pivot to being to be a part of engagement activities conversations and just posting um round tables where it's not really like a head giving direction to everyone but it's truly a round table where there's the contribute to contribute contribution of everyone allowed and that also includes having a culture change at your agencies at census we like we talked about buzzwords the buzzword we're running with right now like we're on some big-time 10-year transformation um initiatives going on and in doing that we realize it has to be a readiness for our workforce to come with us so we're heavy with psychological safety in the workplace i know individuals think well what's that and it's really um the premise of it is truly having an environment where you don't fear offering a suggestion where you don't feel close that if i say hey i have a question about this or i think maybe we should try this there's not this fear of how will i be received by my peers and my leadership and i think once you can have a cultural shift of what innovation looks like and how it's accepted and what the invitation of it looks like to carry it out that helps i also think people are on to us we love to introduce trends that last for the duration of an administration or the duration of whoever is in the seat at the time and instead of introducing trends we have to start introducing landmarks landmarks of changes that we can sort of pin our hat on this is a milestone that this is something we've championed there was a charge that was called and this was our answer to it and i think if we can work from that collaborative spirit we've got a shot because we're going to need it we're going to need to be able to modernize our entire way of thinking so that others want to join us ask yourself do you work in an agency or in a or in an environment where young talent would like to be we're in the midst of this great resignation we're losing those that can do it because we don't have them in an environment where it's exciting it's cutting edge it's something new for me upset census when we introduced ai and blockchain it wasn't something that was our norm so there were individuals from all across the directorate who necessarily didn't work directly with my my division or with my program area but heard about what was going on through strategic communications and said hey i'd like to know a little bit more about that that's the exact kind of enthusiasm you're looking for now that could be from a tenured employee or that could be from someone who just showed up fresh out of your pathways intern program we're looking to say what can i do to really earn my way here but that your response as an agency will be key on how you modernize whether or not folks join in and participate moving forward i'm hoping that answered your question because what i i tell people all the time you've got to be welcoming and we're not always welcoming and that's the key barrier to how we're going to be able to be that forefront next level and chapter 7 before they answer my question and you actually you know validated one of our uh one of the one of the values that we talk about at servicenow is so they this idea of creating belonging which is what i think you're you're describing and you know i love that that the the fact that you're thinking about psychological safety i work in environments now that everybody on this call has where you know that there might be a better way to do something uh but if you raise your hand and you poke your head up it might get chopped off and you know that creates a lack of uh incentive and fewer people participate and you get an organization that's not necessarily not necessarily diverse or inclusive then you have uh you know that the taxpayers feel the impact of that in my experience so i really agree but like you make your money when you buy think about the real estate industry and that's also going to be the key when you hire you make your money when you hire so for all of you who sits in sitting seats where you hire talent or you're on recruitment on panels hire someone who doesn't think like you diversify your peer group if you're an engineer meet an architect if you're an architect meet a statistician if you're a statistician say hello to somebody who works in robotics if you're in robotics say to somebody say hello to somebody who's working as an economist diversify your workforce so that there's always a perspective of difference at the table thanks i love it i love it and just i want to i want to build on this recruiting uh concept a little bit because you you mentioned the great resignation and you know hillary i'll ask you first and then ted uh are you um having a hard time recruiting people into the or into your organization people with the current i.t skill sets um people who are earlier in their career what's your experience been like i won't brag but we actually have one of the best teams i could ever imagine um and and yes i mean it's been it's been a little bit harder in terms of recruiting some technical talent and some some unique skill sets but we we are such a strong mission organization and we are really able to draw people in and give people next steps within the organization due to the strong uh frankly love of the mission and love of working on these issues and so yes it's been a little bit more challenging but we we continue to be able to get really good talent and i think part of that is also the excitement of modernizing and the excitement of change and the excitement of a culture that we at least try really hard to promote which is um similar to what camille was talking about and valuing different views valuing disagreements and differences and actually changing our minds and changing what we put in system based on feedback that we get from our customers one key one key uh really best practice for us over our modernization um effort was that we we developed a change network that was our global change network um all of our partners throughout the world who had system solution champions at each of their um ngos and our change network became our eyes and ears on the ground throughout the world and through them we got such good feedback about customer experience about what our partners needed to be able to use the system to process refugees and we both listened and then actually made changes based on that feedback and i think it's both creating a culture that listens and then a culture that puts our mouth where our money is in terms of actually making change based on what our customers are telling us and building that confidence with the user base so that they want to continue to give us feedback and be honest and direct with us where we've gotten things right and where we haven't and then being willing to fail adapt and shift and move forward so i know i i shifted a little bit in terms of your initial question but i think part of the reason we've been able to retain such strong talent is the culture that we have and the culture it sounds like some of my other co-panelists have been able to create at their organizations excellent and i think the idea that you're giving people modern technologies to work with is you know an important part of your success people want to work want to use technologies at work like they use at home nobody wants to take a step backwards you know in their in their work life technology perspective and you know ted i just want to get your perspective on on this uh on this topic and then i also want to ask you about um you know the way the ways that fema is evaluating customer experience okay great question um very concrete um uh wow hard to improve on um uh dr jones and and hillary's um responses i mean i've been a a pretty long champion of the idea of psychological safety ever since you know i read uh julia rozotsky's article and when they studied google and some of the performance teams and you know my favorite go-to quote uh was uh has been colin powell colin powell who you know once said you know the minute and i'm paraphrasing the minute your staff stop bringing their problems to you is the minute you stop leading them and really that's to me the essence of psychological safety within teams so the the idea is broadly that um i look at small structures small teams if we create a culture where every manager and their team uh is in immersed in that environment where trust is the coin of the realm that uh folks are able to bring their problem problems to you and and you're able to solve the problems right so problem solving is really key for all managers and um then the sort of the mission and the vision drives itself i you know i'm i'm with hillary on this one i mean um the the mission of fema is such a noble mission uh as is resettling refugees and being a diplomat right i can't i can think of few others i i know that across the federal spectrum uh uh we are we we have this incredible privilege to serve the nation and and our citizens uh and every really uh mission set is in fact noble and i think um uh the the the challenge i think to to your specific question about um and i think it was like either metrics or johnson you just repeat that again how um i i think i just lost a little bit can you please repeat that again sorry yeah how do you measure that customer experience or right right that's right well you know yeah i mean the the whole world of evaluation uh you think of donald kirkpatrick uh is a well-known science right so i'm not gonna necessarily go into sort of the tactics of evaluation or how we look at you know knowledge practice indicators or kpts or kpas knowledge practice attitudes or that kind of science but rather that um i think to dr jones's concept of are we are we actually creating concrete milestones that uh that are achievable and that is tied to performance and i think um the the idea of how you create metrics for customer experience uh either through survey instruments or etc i mean that again that's well known uh and how we scientifically uh use best practice in evaluation again going back to sort of the father evaluation kirkpatrick um uh those are legitimate but i think i want to go come back to what dr jones mentioned in terms of you know these concrete milestones uh that kind of help inspire a group um um i think one of the questions that i just saw in the chat was about whether uh recruiting is uh either better with the young or old i don't think it makes a difference you know i once read an article that some of the most successful startups uh in the nation were founded or are the most successful founders uh for technology startups are those in their 60s uh i think it's it's really um uh i think where hillary set an innovative mindset uh driven by the mission and uh quite frankly um uh there isn't a mission in the government that's not honorable and inspiring uh if one approaches it that way uh and the rest is really how we manage performance how we manage performance outcomes uh and ultimately um what are the key milestones that drive those um you know how what are the actions you took to solve that problem and what was the result and um i think we're on safe ground if we we stand on that i hope that answers your question i kind of think i shifted a little bit but hopefully i addressed that yeah yeah and i just built on this the the culture conversation that we've been having iq modernization change in general requires the right culture no you've talked at length about inclusiveness and creating safe environments you described too but for our um for audience out there i'd like and this is this is for for all of you what what you know if you had if you joined a new organization and um you sensed the culture needed to change in order in order to uh modernize her order to do big things what's the first thing that you would do where would you start well can you also just begin with you because you've been so eloquent on this topic already i think a lot of times we we think that change has to come from um the top from leadership when i tell anybody that's the most fluid chain that's in an agency or organization and so it's really that grassroots mind staff cultural shift that really are the greatest influencers of your organization for example essence as we go through you know we've had a shift in our directors and different things that you know new administrations comes in we all get new secretaries and different things and i try to encourage the staff is it's important to introduce ourselves to them so that they can earmark where we are yes they're going to have guidance yes they're going to have leadership trends but there's also going to be this influence we have on how they lead us and that leadership has to stop being looked at at who is the ses who was the director who is that 15 because there is an influence from our gs5s our gs7s our gs9s and those mighty 11 through 13s and so we have to empower the core of the organization see where your biggest um advocacy group is and that's really where your um your untapped talent is that is available to really explode on the scene and propel an agency to those next levels and i think a lot of times we are remiss because we feel like title and pay grade represents the the um equivalent to leadership but leadership is a shared responsibility throughout an organization we all have responsibilities of our stewardship as federal employees we all have a responsibility to those things that are documented in our performance ratings but then there's that and or duties as described and needed that is that filler that really captivates that you have a you have a responsibility as well to lead to influence to be the change you hope to see and i think those are the conversations that are being are have that are really elevating cultures and agency so i wanted to go back and challenge um hillary and let her know that i don't know i work with the best team around right now at the u.s census bureau you may have a good one but i i've got a supporting cast that i would throw up against anybody out here at the u.s census bureau absolutely dynamic place to work with a group of people that's dedication to the public has been one that again i spent time at dod which um i will always consider family at home but there is a spirit at the u.s census bureau that i'm hoping on grows contagious to other agencies when it comes to service delivery consideration of your external customers and a grace given to your internal peers well i gotta ask hillary how she how she wants to respond to this throw down that i know hillary has a great team but i think we're allowed to have three of the best teams in government which sounds like a fema state and business so i i love it actually you don't tend to hear so much excitement um from government employees that is not the stereotype and clearly we all really love our jobs and have great teams which is absolutely fantastic oh and and i agree it's coming through this conversation i think uh to our audience very clearly but uh hillary where if you had to begin a culture change you wanted you want to improve you know continue to improve the culture where do you start we've touched on some of it i mean i i think first i'll go back to what camille said previously which is creating a culture where people people can speak up and speak their views and and you listen and you hear and you actually show evidence of that through change and and it's easier i know there's a bit of buzzwords there it's easier to say than do sometimes but i i think it is a culture that you can create in an organization as you actually give people um actually show that when people do speak up they're valued and they are um and they are appreciated and they are welcome to continue to show their value and show their differences um for me also something that doesn't get as much attention um when we have this conversation but for me it's also starting to address things like org structure business processes governance like creating a place where people understand rules and responsibilities and and it's clear throughout the organization so that people know who to go to know how to successfully work in organizations that they can get things done they're not spinning their wheels and they don't get deflated by coming up against roadblocks over and over um sometimes i see that inefficiency and in places where people really just don't know how to get to success and part of that is because you don't have good or new business processes in place for people to be able to get there and so trying to deal with some of those more basic challenges um that can stymie us but i think can play a large role in terms of creating a place where people want to work and a place where people see positive positive evidence that the work that they're doing is actually leading to measurable change well good good observation i think technology can have a lot to do with making it simpler for people to do their jobs too often we have lots of siloed systems that are disconnected and i need to use all of them to do my job or maybe i need to use all of them as an employee when it's time to do some hr functions and you know i in the role that i'm in at servicenow i get to see a lot of agencies and how they they use various technology tools and you're on the right track for sure hillary because the the ones that seem to do it best are figuring out how to collect those systems under uh a platform and using that platform to simplify the experiences of employees or customers as they as they interact so i think it's a great point that you you just made and ted i want to conclude this this part of the conversation with you recognizing that culture extends beyond the federal employees in in your organization to oftentimes the industry partners that we work with have never haven't worked in any it organizations that really didn't have some kind of blended team element and the big the whole team is always much bigger and you know that creating a team culture can be challenging at times too just curious your your perspective on that yeah that's a great question because um um you know this is just not a buzzword it's it's often you know just really executing against the priorities and i think we're sort of getting really concrete from um you know i think higher order concepts like culture which are so important really foundational and people first to the kind of culture that gets the the staff that often aren't always immediately recognized you you think about your finance guys your analysts your cfo staff your contract procurement staff um very often when you don't see or you see an inability to address you know a technical debt and that's hopefully not a buzzword because i don't see many people always talking about it but that's fine if you want to label it as a buzzword but you know that that process debt often occurs when um the basics of acquisition um are are are not well executed and so um i'm gonna just maybe answer that through uh addressing or highlighting you know some of the folks that don't always get you know the the fed 100s if you will um they they often uh labor often unrecognized but they're so critical um hr for example and i know that dr jones is is uh definitely representing uh some of the hr equities but you know hiring time to hire um uh smoothing the onboarding process um and just some of these mechanics i think that ultimately allow for um industry partners those who are contractors to be able to um uh really execute against uh the uh the requirements that are coming making sure those requirements are clearly articulated uh that uh that the broader governance structures uh uh you know we've we've got a fairly mature i.t governance board here at fema we've got technology communities of practice that that are cross-cutting that we're constantly documenting uh processes uh in policy uh communicating them regularly across the agency uh and then educating uh ultimately uh on what you know a buzzword is now but and turning that into uh an individual development plan to to learn uh and i think as dr jones mentioned you know at the lower grades quote unquote they're not lower they're just we're all part of the same team our 11s our 12s or 13s right so i think um just to bring that back to just the fundamentals and i think extending the appreciation uh of that there is no least person on your team uh and doing our level best going back to the culture of of psychological safety and a strong culture that just rewards the team or teams as a whole that there is no um there's no job that is should not be unrecognized and so you mentioned industry partners it really is going back to the government to be able to allow for our industry partners to both perform as uh in within acquisition and also for as a source of of really good ideas we i think one of the things i'll just leave you with is because of cogan and and sort of virtual technologies we've been able to uh uh one sort of cool thing we've done in the last year is uh sort of drive the idea of a reverse virtual reverse industry day uh that takes into account uh industry partners you know all throughout the nation whether they're you know in austin or uh the south bay in silicon valley or in seattle or oregon uh or boston or atlanta um or miami uh there's just a uh a large amount of talent out there and uh and i think some of the the innovations we've all had within virtual technologies have allowed us to uh open the aperture for input uh and insight so um yeah no excellent excellent the the new world of work is going to create these opportunities not just by using virtual technology by having teams that are more representative because you can hire people from lots of geographies you can interact with people in different ways so we have the tools in place i think to to move beyond buzzwords to turn the buzzwords into into results and uh you know i'm gonna um i love to hear you say that um but i want to add lend this to every voice within earshot someone's got to be brave sometimes we fear being first sometimes it's not um easy to be at the front of the line and i want to challenge you to say it's okay someone's got to be brave someone's got to take a look at something new and say let's give this a shot somebody's got to be willing to try on you got to be comfortable failure is a part of success if this doesn't work what did we learn from it what did we learn from it that can propel us the next effort someone's got to be brave in the sense that they are willing to take risks and i know somebody's got to be brave to be willing to have an agile approach no meetings about the meetings about the meeting for the meeting decision making time partner with your industry um colleagues don't be afraid to have new voices at the table modernization will happen from those who are looking from a lens not similar to ours which means it will come from the outside but we have to be welcoming of it when it comes in and that is you know hosting industries industry days capitalizing on market research opportunities to see what's out there make friends across the aisle talk to your other colleagues if i'm incentives i'm going to reach out to someone at justice see what's going on over at fema see what's happening over at ffa faa what are other agencies doing that's propelling them to success and don't be afraid to ask questions make friends make room for other people at the table so that you can host these conversations and make it contagious invite your staff like hey you guys graduated you're still part of your alumni groups what's the latest and greatest anybody in any of those pmbok groups and things like that what's the latest and greatest going on with project management kind of trends and things like that um what are our contract leaders doing what's happening at the big four companies what are some of these small 8a companies that are coming around that are just doing dynamic things what's our what's the what's our read on partnering with mc to see what they can offer but someone's got to be brave someone's got to be first and be okay with that someone being you well excellent final thought you know uh hillary any any final thoughts from you camille summed it up great i would just add be brave it could be you and then set ambitious targets and drive your team to completion i i think we we've had a history in government of running and chasing the latest fire of not prioritizing and not bringing things to completion challenge your team to set those ambitious targets and drive until you complete it and really to prioritize the modernization of your network so that you end up your system so that you can be able to use those as new crises come up and be able to respond more quickly as crises come up very good ted um you get the last word here hard to read that i uh it's all about execution so uh let's roll up your sleeves uh and serve uh our nation thanks well that's great so so i i i'm taking a few things from this conversation today be brave be able to prioritize and then have the team in place to execute and this idea of moving beyond buzzwords requires all three of those things it's it requires the people and it requires the culture that makes it safe to to to move forward just like you were all describing i i could uh i could not have said uh said it better myself i really appreciate all of these these ideas you know we're going to be talking about it modernization always it seems like and you know the i think there are great ideas today on how to build our teams and to move forward it's more complicated environment today than it was yesterday and certainly a few years ago so it gave us some great advice and and ideas of how to be successful in in the world that we live in now so camille and ted and hillary thank you for all the work that you do and for being here today um you really made this a great discussion i i enjoyed it and learned a lot and i'm sure our audience did as well everybody in the audience on behalf of servicenow thank you for attending i want to turn things back over to claudia from that insider at this time thanks so much jonathan and thank you again to our panel today for this fantastic conversation and for our audience thank you for your participation training certificates will be emailed after the webinar ends and remember to log back in in the next day or two to download a copy of today's captioning transcript we have many webinars 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