and watch for a little bit this is troy pasol with now with troy with another workflow wednesday and today april 27th end of april how we got here already i have no idea but it's been going really well i hope this year has been off to a just an awesome start for you today i get to be joined by a team up in canada third era as we continue to grow and expand our goal is not only cover the platform well but to cover the globe well and so with that let me introduce that my two guests today with me today i have our pit sonic hi arpet hey troy tell me a little bit about your role here at third era yeah so hello everyone my name is arpet semi uh i'm leading the pmo in the bpmo team out here in canada so my team comprises of the business analysts business process consultants and the engagement manager so uh people in my team are are responsible for all the organization that comes along with managing your project so managing the project kickoff managing the the cost budget resource kpis uh setting up the workshops running the workshops capturing requirements so everything that has to do like you know with the the organization and management of the project end-to-end yeah just just a little bit right just a little bit of a lift yeah awesome we also have with mandip ball mandi say hello hi troy hi rp yeah i'm randy val i am the associate director here at third era i lead the technical team uh here in canada so all all the magic that happens when we build the solutions i have the solution architects the technical consultants um all reporting to me and yeah it's and so i am the person that works well with office to make things run for for all the projects right awesome i'm so thankful that you two jumped on this workflow wednesday with me one of the things that that i wanted us to really be able to talk about is as clients look at servicenow it is so massive and can have such a transformational impact on the organization as they say right now it can become that control tower for the enterprise his clients look at that they need to and often do work with partners like third era and so one of the things that that we get to explore and talk it through is what does it look like to really bring your a game to project delivery and so mandeep i don't know if you want to kind of kick us off with it after that first angst it's like on both sides the client and partner have agreed yeah we're we're going to do this work together yeah no troy i mean yeah it it's a huge thing right i mean even for the client they're maybe they're stepping into something new uh or they're already well into service now and they need to explore other avenues and that's where we really come in i mean we're not this is not going to be an end to end you know this is the recipe cookbook for you as to you know best way to do this but from our learnings and what we found especially in servicenow projects and how we can really help um you know get you to the business value that you want out of service now i mean one of the key areas is our sales and delivery team like it's not it sales can't live in silo right uh just going out there it's it's a partnership within here at third era that really brings out what are the business outcomes we're trying to achieve what what is it that we're trying to do for you in your service now space and be and really we're we're working at the hip sales and delivery here to to get that together so we can bring that to the client to say okay this is this is what we foresee this is what we anticipate um and and how we can bring that team together from a resourcing perspective you know troy you might come to me and be randy there's a client who needs this this and this what does that mean what kind of technical skill set do we need there let's have that conversation so then you know the client's happy they understand who's coming to the table when we do those kick-offs and so forth um and it's about balance of course you're suddenly asking it this way you know one of the things that we see is we continue to communicate there's a period there's there's a number of weeks that are in between yes we all around the table we agree this is good work to do and there's weeks before that kickoff yeah and and so the snarky way to put it is so we're not just sitting around waiting no no not at all like we're working in the background we're getting the right people together we're building that right team that like that skill set and what's great we also have that flexible option as well even prior to signing let's say a statement of work we can bring those other options up in terms of uh we have the capability from you know onshore or offshore resources that we can leverage what works for you how can we benefit your at the end of the day we all know there's a finite time and and and budget right when we need to accommodate every anything so we have that flexibility here where we have a global team we can leverage that whether it be you know do we need a balance of thought leadership from onshore plus technical consultants offshore or vice versa i mean we we have that opportunity to really have that like you said troy at that sales aspect yeah and and engage myself and arpit from the delivery to really um set the team up for success yeah let me let me transition that a little bit you know our print i don't know if you're gonna voice into that but let's let's transition a little bit as we talk about building that team we talk about some of the capabilities that we show up with that that leans into actually having the lights on for the project um tell me a little bit about you know kind of your view of how delivery methodology shapes success for for those projects yeah for sure troy so i think before we start off like you know with the specifics of like how you have this conversation with the client uh let's i just wanted to talk about some of the like you know different methodologies that we all know about so we have the traditional waterfalls being used for multiple years like you know a lot of the clients have been using that they're very comfortable with that and then about like 20 25 years ago is when agile showed up to the world and it showed everyone that there is another way to run and manage your projects to run and manage your your devops or internal development teams as well um now some of the things that we've learned we've delivered projects using both waterfall and agile methodologies and they both have their pros and cons uh but what we've learned based on all our experience so far is that the approach that best works is actually a combination of the two and i know you have a term for for this which is like i think water agile is what you yeah i keep promoting the term but i think it's falling on deaf ears i don't know but i keep saying agile fall um and i i don't know why it doesn't resonate maybe it just seems like we're falling on ourselves i i i it's not agile fail yeah but it's it's agile in and all it really means is looking for a way to say those two methodologies and and the value that comes out of both of them can work well together and and i think from my perspective more often than not as organizations work together that's still done in kind of an agile very pmp you know pmi based initiate plan execute close we kind of know what that corporate engagement looks like feels like waterfall but then as we get inside there's a lot more back and forth of that real agile focus of how to identify sprints and user stories to so that you really speed that implementation and engagement right yeah and it is exactly what you said troy it's like basically taking the best elements out of both methodologies and combining them together and like you know in a manner that it works for the client the client feels comfortable with it the project team on the on the partner side feels comfortable with it and then everyone is working on the same page like you know and working towards achieving those outcomes so uh like the best thing i love about this uh this hybrid methodology is that like you know uh sometimes uh it's important for us to have those discussions and workshops with the clients up front like you know we want to make sure we've talked through everything they want to achieve out of this engagement like all the the business requirements are captured up front they're validated with the client we have a proper sign up from the client but then once the development starts this is where we can start to now like you know bring in the the best parts of the agile methodology which is like the iterative approach right we don't have to develop all the captured business requirements in one go let's do five of them let's let's like you know bring out the elements of agile let's plan our sprints let's do our sprint planning let's do us use a story point estimation see how many stories fit in the first print and then make sure at the end of each sprint we're doing a demo with the customer so that they're seeing the product in action and not right at the end where it could be a case that like you know we develop everything at once and then go back to the client at the end and the client just tells us hey this is not exactly what i was what i was looking for and then at that time you've spent a bunch of time you've spent you've spent hours you've spent like you know everyone's productivity so like i think that's where the the uh hybrid methodology is something like you know that we are trying to push out to everyone uh but at this time i would also like to say that like you know obviously we have our own version of what works best we have perspectives like you know on what works best from a waterfall perspective what works best from an agile perspective and what works best from a hybrid perspective but it is very important to have that conversation up front with the client as well like you know make like let's let's run the waters right like let's see what are they comfortable with what have they been used to so far like if they have worked with other partners in the past what sort of methodology that they use and there are different scenarios there some clients have just worked at waterfall and they are very uh like you know hesitant to accept the change to agile they want to continue with waterfall so like you know when you run into that scenario you have to like either like you know make sure like you know you are comfortable delivering waterfall yourself or you are comfortable enough to have that communication with the client that hey this might be a good opportunity for you to to try out agile and we are here to guide you like you know through the entire path so we'll we'll show you what agile looks like we'll walk you through what a sprint planning session looks like what is a sprint like you know what is a user story we're more than happy to walk someone like you know from a client perspective who hasn't done agile or hybrid before walk them through the basics and then like you know take it easy uh like as we are doing our first agile project with them so there's a lot of different different scenarios and different opportunities that come up from a delivery methodology perspective for sure yeah then i just like to add sorry trade that i think to to off its point we we have the opportunity to to help and coach the clients along the way right and and and we can adapt and be flexible in in that approach i'll give you a perfect example on a recent client actually the business was building and re-engineering a whole brand new process so they didn't even have a defined process yet you know we we came in and we really helped and partnered with them to understand what this process may look like and and have that iterative approach which really helped us to showcase the servicenow's capabilities as well and and how we can quickly address some of these requirements um as you're building out your process so yeah it's that it's that coaching along the way kind of thing that can we we can also do to really help i i want to pull on that a little bit and ask ask you guys some more about really tool selection in that um you know we are all aware being part of the third era that servicenow is how we run our business right and many times given the choice and the flexibility we'll use servicenow for managing that customer facing projects our user stories are managed in in that instance um but we'll always use the client's preferred tool um but i'd like you guys supposed to voice in on you know that conversation about where should this reside in some of the trade-offs of looking at it where it resides the tool of choice if you will yeah for sure troy i'll i'll speak on that so as you said like you know the best part about servicenow is that it does give you the the necessary tools to manage all of your your sprints and and user stories within the platform itself so that's i think would be our starting point like you know when we whenever we are having that conversation with the client that hey have you do you actually know about the agile module within servicenow do you know like how easy it is like you know to create your sprints to plan your sprints create user stories uh manage them like you know assign story points to them and then once your sprint is actually in progress you can actually get sprint burn down data like there's so many good features and reporting capabilities within servicenow itself now as i said previously you always have to check with the client and they might be doing things in a completely different way so like we've run into scenarios before where the client is using something like jira to to like you know for their project management that that's where they're capturing all the user requirements so it's it's all a matter of like you know having that conversation with the client making sure like you know that they're they're actually happy to try out something new uh versus if they want us to stick with jira or some other tool that they have been using so far and that's like you know something that they're using enterprise right they don't want to like you know switch their their ways of of working uh i think the the partner the servicenow partners at uh in that scenario you have to be flexible enough to to like you know to work with whatever the client feels best comfortable with i was on mute mandeep anything anything you'd add to that you know as you look at tools and kind of helping clients look at where where those should reside in some of the trade-offs of where they might be yeah i'd like i mean from a trade-off perspective like off it saying i mean we would love if everything i mean the benefit of having it in service now of course even for yourself as a client is now you have all these project artifacts living within service now for for yourself and ongoing care and feedback on ongoing care exactly so you you you have all of that but if that's not the case it it really just then comes down to the flexible approach um and yes there there is trade-offs but um we're we're more than happy to just you know even if it's excel spreadsheets going back and forth it's f it's fine right i mean just as long as the and the key thing is just as long as there's um the collaboration is there a and and that's the most important thing and and to we're a very visual world right now um so this the whole iterative approach to be able to showcase okay this is the piece of work that we've just finished we're going to show you the show-and-tell kind of thing exactly so then it really helps in them understanding oh okay okay this this piece is done now oh great now we could no now we can enroll or move move on exactly so so it just it just balance and yeah the flexibility you beat me to the excel comment you know it i i think it's funny and i brought it up because you know i on one hand in in all the work through the years that i've been involved with servicenow as i work with clients like show me where you've got a sharepoint list or excel files going back and forth or emails going back and forth and let's see if there's a better way because i think there is yeah yeah but and so well that's that's a very common pattern and theme that we see servicenow stepping in to solve those workflow problems on a workflow wednesday um we've also lived in delivery where we're using those excels back and forth to manage those user stories and those those things we can make it work um but it's it's where every time we go into a different client where are they at the maturity scale and how do we meet them where they're at with those tools um but that that i think next connects to our next topic is as we talk about working with them really understanding their tools that means there's a relationship there so if you guys would both get a voice in as we jump into projects when we talk about relationship matters what does that mean yeah no i mean it's a huge thing i think this is where it comes down to um really where you as a group and your your soft skills come in i mean communication is key here and and and communication is not just the meetings and so forth it's an it's an array of communication it could be through you know status reports um updates um i'm gonna use some agile term scrum stand ups any of those kind of things showbacks you know that's all forms of communication and that really helps build that client relationship and really getting that understanding from a context it's key it's key as as a as a project team coming in throughout the project resources that are there whether they be technical or non-technical that what is the business outcomes and what is the context that we're trying to achieve here because sometimes we may just be you know heads down into a specific piece of work for example but it's that context sharing between the group uh as to what it is that we're actually trying to build which really then helps i think the the design um of how we're going to approach to build this solution for you um and at the end of the day it's it's the communication to set the expectations early on and keep reiterating them along the way we we all know we've all been there troy arpit projects projects will have new things come up which now have become higher priorities than what we had before now now it's how how can we as a group change trajectory almost er in in some instances um what can we then offer given obviously like i said before the finite timeline that we may have to achieve this there there is always options so and if you've if you started building that communication and client relationship those conversations come up much easier as to okay we need to take a diversion here i mean we do it in our day-to-day lives anyway so it's only natural that you know we apply apply that same logic to how to run a project as well so you know those big things it's it's don't be afraid to even bring up those conversations because you know it's it's key it's important like something new may come up and now we need to divert course and how and how do we as a project team help and propose this is an another approach we could tackle this right right right and just to add on to that like mandy i love when you said like you know hey don't be afraid to bring that up because i think people are afraid because these conversations are not fun conversations right like to say to a client that hey we said we could do this in eight weeks but we just realized like you know it's gonna take probably four extra weeks so the timeline needs to be stretched out by four weeks or uh hey we were estimating like you know x amount of budgets to be used by this particular phase but we have already used way more right so these conversations are not fun conversations uh but as long as you and the client have been in constant communication like you know they are pretty much working as part of your team they are fully aware of what's going on on the project and you have sort of put in that effort since the beginning of the project to build that relationship with them so that you feel comfortable enough to to bring this up with them and then just have a good discussion as to like you know what is our solution to move forward exactly and at the end of the day it's a it's a partnership right and that's we're on this service now journey together like and and and and that's how we really have to approach every single project that we um deliver i i like that and i think the the reality is you know just like we're saying monday we do this in in regular life why wouldn't we expect something different is as we come to work and we'd work on implementation projects either from a client side or ours um because so often that scope as we talk about from a project management perspective or objectives the things we want to address both sides can change that as you come in it's like oh we didn't know that as we work together there's things that we find and sometimes it's we didn't know on the project that we were looking at when you do a job adapt on either side but i've also seen it where it's like priority is on the client side it's like the pace of change that we're living in today is is astronomical that it's it almost comes without saying that the business that we're helping our client through when we started is very possibly not the business that they have at the end that that sometimes those course corrections those scope changes come because it's like we were headed this direction the world changed on us we have to head this direction and that affects this project now what do we do and so i like that idea both you guys talked about admitting that having that tough conversation in in every coming up with suggestions and recommendations together um one of the things that i've enjoyed about third era is just the fact that we've grown so fast and the scale that we're at you know we're well over 400 current client-facing projects today the pace of change that we get to experience by working with that many many clients is is amazing um because we do get to see many different situations but as we think about that learning you know i think the the last question that i really want to spend some time on is is as you look at projects um there's some areas that that we might say are underrated maybe you guys can poke at some of those and say if if you could you know pull a client aside beforehand in a project or a project team aside what areas would you say make sure you spend time on these yeah now that's a very good question troy so we've identified actually three areas that we that we consider underrated and i'm gonna list them out and i'm gonna provide some thought process to why we picked these three right so the three areas in our opinion which are underrated when it comes to servicenow delivery our project kickoff project close out and ocm like three very key areas but in our opinion like you know they fairly go under the radar and i'll tell you why uh once the project starts like you know we have our first set of workshops at that point everyone is super focused like you know the the bas the bpcs are are busy with prepping for the workshops the client is prepping like you know for providing input to the workshops and then like you know once the requirements are captured developers are all focused on making sure the product like you know the the service now development is is going well followed by testing so like you know during the actual course of the of the project like everyone knows their roles everyone is super focused uh so no one really kind of pays attention like you know to project kickoff and close out everyone's main focus is just on the actual delivery of the project which is not a wrong thing but i'll tell you why we need to pay some some more attention to kick off and and throws out so project kickoff think of it as like this is the first opportunity for you to like you know to meet everyone on the on the client side so the entire project team on the client side meets the entire project team on the partner side for the first time so this is your chance to make a first impression and you want to make sure you put the effort to make a good and lasting first impression uh this is your time like you know to validate all the business outcomes that have been laid out in the sw like you know let me interject yeah great great stuff but i want to pause there because that first impression i think is so key i i don't want to i don't want to rush past it because we were talking about those relationships yeah projects are compressed and there's pressure on them and and i think that that impression on both sides of the table at the the kickoff is how you get to the point where you can have those relationships and build it exactly yeah it's like sorry sorry to interrupt your flow but i don't know i'm good i wanted to give a little bit of time there to say why does it matter to have a first impression it's not just hate we showed up and and and we looked good we were joking about having having a little bit of swagger that you've got to come in and enjoy the work and do the work and present well as as being educators and advocates for our clients but there's more to it so thanks thanks for letting me yeah no all good uh like you know there are business outcomes that were that were laid out in the statement of work based on discussions that the sales teams had with the client but now this is the this is your time to validate each of those business outcomes and re-trade them in front of the entire project team but this is what we're striving towards uh this is your chance to put uh in front of them in updated project timeline because there could be a scenario where like you know uh there was some gap between when the when the contract was signed and when the project actually kicked off so the timeline start dates are kind of shifted right so you want to make sure you're presenting the most latest version of the project timeline and everyone on the client side feels comfortable or has the opportunity to raise any concerns they see with the timeline this is also your opportunity to kind of help help your future self and what i mean by that is uh like you know you can put in the effort at the beginning to come up with things like you know hey what does the the project steering committee look like like you know when if during the the course of the project something doesn't align with the plan like you know the timeline needs to shift the budget uh like you know needs to be discussed again uh who do we go talk to like what does that path look like because when you get into that situation during the project uh duration you're already under the stress of delivering this project and now you have an issue to deal with at that time i think you'll thank your past self if you've already had that structure put into place and you know exactly who you need to go talk to versus trying to figure that out under the stress that you already are during project delivery so i think that's why project kickoff is is one of those areas where it needs if not as more but as much attention as the actual project delivery itself as well and then on the on the same note project close out uh we've seen like you know once the project goes live like you know we we do the push to production the client is super happy the project team is super happy because it's like you know months and months of efforts now something have resulted like you know that the users are using everyone is super happy uh but there are still some things that need to happen once you once you've delivered the project right and when i'm i'm not talking about things like knowledge transfer or training because that is not project closed or that should have been happening before you you go to production right before you actually go live uh but i'm talking about things like once the like you know the noise has settled users are now using your new new configuration or whatever you've pushed to production sit with the client and make sure you go through that list of business outcomes say did you we actually achieve every single one of them pick that off right and make that make the client know that we actually delivered what exactly what we promised uh talk to them about lessons learned and lessons learned i know is one one of those things where like you know everyone does it but everyone feels like nothing comes out of it and that i want to say is it all depends on what you want to get out of it right is it just like you want to have that conversation with the client with your internal team capture everything in an excel or a document and then just post it on a sharepoint and never look at it again right like that that happens but it is also like do you actually want to improve you know your project delivery so it all depends on how much effort you want to put into it so lessons learned is still a very key and important thing to do uh next thing you want to chat with the client about is like hey so we just did this piece of work for you everything is in production what's next like you know your service now journey doesn't doesn't end here like what are you thinking next in terms of like you know what additional features or you want your users to start using on the servicenow platform so from that perspective i think project kickoff and project closeout are two underrated areas that definitely need as much attention as the actual project delivery as well and maybe many of you can speak more to the ocm side yeah no i mean that's a huge thing and like you just touched upon it knowledge transfer is also it's not a bookend um activity right it shouldn't be it needs to be in conjunction um ongoing it needs to be put in there and ocm overall there's change happening in the organization so it's something that we should be thinking up front even when we're talking from a statement of work perspective as an offering how can we help you it could be small things like videos or it could be as vast as we you know you need as an organization if you don't have internal uh resources you know we can definitely help you there as well in that whole piece completely this this has been a fun conversation i i appreciate time arpeg and mundeep that you come together and it's clear that this is a subject area that you guys are passionate about for those that are watching i'm easy to find on linkedin and mandeep and arpit are here if if you've got questions about what a project engagement would look like with third era to help your team get more out of service now reach out to any of us um in and let's have that conversation and and explore what an a game in in project delivery would look like with your organization um bundy less less predictive words and thoughts last thing i want to just wrap up i know it's a bit of a cliche uh in the world of real estate we always say key thing is location location location i would say in this whole space it's communication communication absolutely yeah very very true communicate communicate communicate and then when you're done communicate some more communication exactly don't stop communicating yeah yes indeed all right our pit less thoughts i just wanted to say that troy thank you for the opportunity for like you know for having me and mendeep here project delivery something like you know we we go through every every single day of our life that's our role so as we said we're very passionate about it and it's hard to to fit it into 30 minutes like there's so much more that we could have talked about right so but we're very very happy and very uh appreciated like you know that you gave us the opportunity to come here and talk some of the things that we feel are important when it comes to project delivery of course the world of work has transformed in in how we find ways to help organizations to perform better and that is key um you know i just just saw a video recently where it's like the the ways that used to work are gone whether that's on the human capital side or others you know the world has transformed and servicenow is a platform that can help address so many of that and so thank you for jumping on this call like i said we'll have some links in the post for you guys to reach out um but with that thanks again have a great wednesday and tune in next time for another workflow wednesday every wednesday 9 a.m mountain thanks much thank you thank you bye all right let me wait for this and turn the destinations off