[Music] all right welcome everyone i am mark scott you are watching the phoenix dev show and i i got my nifty new intro going music on that makes me it sounds like a late night show like i know yeah it's the phx step show with your host mark [ __ ] guess scott i'm going with this i love it chuck gets the joke this is great yeah no i i think it's funny it should be a late night show that's what i'm kind of trying to model everything off of it should be you know it's a chat show we talk about all the things that we want to talk about but uh so before we started the stream right you and i were talking about replacing uh replacing light bulbs and and potentially having an odd number when you need a an even number of things um and i was i was gonna tell you the story uh my wife so my wife and i had the same car we had a pt cruiser we didn't buy uh oddly enough did not buy them we were dating at the time and we just happened to both have the same car and so i always shared parts back and forth between the two um and and so when when i would buy a blinker right they come in packs of two they always yeah always coming back to two is that how many do you need i would yeah you only need one i would i would buy two of these things and i would replace mine and my wife's at the exact same time and by the time that car died we were in complete sync it was awesome i had like i'd do the oil at the same time the brakes at the same time i took the blinkers at the same time it was great oh man that was you might as well if you're in for a penny you know that if you're if you're doing the oil you might as well do it twice so you got all the tools out you got the yeah yeah and you want to know all the maintenance all the the doubled up on everything and uh mine threw a rod on the freeway and died just randomly just randomly threw a rod in the end like yup there don't recover from that i don't know when the last time i did car maintenance myself was it's been a long time because cars have gotten a lot more complex since i was a kid yeah those plastic pieces i my van i was a mess i had to fix my van i i couldn't get the hose clamp off you need a special you need a special tool to get a hose clamp off what happened a good old screwdriver version of hose clamps like i got on my pool pump nope it's this weird squeezy deal and oh i know what you're talking about yeah yeah yeah yeah and then and everyone's like oh you can use needle nose pliers to get those off i'm like when you're angry and you want to just get this thing done there is no no i'm sorry it's packs off i spent the twenty dollars i got the weird tool i took it off and i put screwdriver once back on that's like nope not gonna deal with it so yeah a little insight into my into my car maintenance abilities there i'm like no i'm gonna convert it back to old school that's the way i like to roll uh chuck hi glad to have you on um resumes we were talking about resumes last week and you left you left you kinda did you meandered all over the place and wound up going in crazy places yeah yeah yeah that's that's uh that's unfortunately the show right we just [Laughter] we don't have a purpose we just kind of do what we want and i say we it's just myself um so we were talking about resumes you left a comment on my youtube channel which got a lot of attention a lot of attention by the way it was not my intent well it was funny it was just said we should talk we need to talk and a smiley face and man i played that up that was so much fun yeah um but i wanted to get you had some you had some hot takes that you wanted to do on on resumes and i wanted to to have you on i wanted to get your opinions um because uh i like resumes i think resumes is an interesting topic that nobody seems to be really you know it's boring but it's interesting to me so there's so many opinions out there and and frankly to be blunt there are so many that are crap oh yeah yeah no last week there there are no wrong answers but there are some wrong answers like this i just pulled up word and it said oh there's the word resume in here it looks like a resume or somehow it recognizes it and this side panel comes out and goes hey you know there's some tips at linkedin and i went nfw man it's like get that out of there i i don't need that so i am i am a bit religious when it comes to resumes and format you're going to find that out and i have asked this man mr mark scott to join me on an upcoming episode of breakpoint that we do for servicenow to talk about this very topic so i'm not going to give away all the secret sauce here but the the things you hit on that i liked and and i was waiting for it i was waiting for it is accomplishments please for the love of god don't think that your uh responsibilities will get you in the door if it says you know uh generated the quarterly report for our team okay that's a responsibility yeah for all i know you may have gotten fired for that because you didn't do it well right now that was a really and if you don't tell me what you did and how well you did it i'm gonna assume the worst and just pitch your resume so it comes down to you know having verbs usually at the beginning like deployed uh uh purchase order software on time and on budget right you don't have to have the physical numbers of how much time or hours you saved that helps that certainly makes a bigger impact but you want to have actual actions in there of how well you did something so when somebody reads this they go wow this person deployed some software on time and on budget the other thing i'm going to tell you is please don't list your skills now you you had the right you you had the right message when you said one page one page one page one page okay i've been doing this i've been in my career for over 40 years if i can get it to one page anyway i'm pretty sure anyone can okay and you know the stuff i did in 1993 on apollo domain os it doesn't help my resume anymore okay it's not a skill nobody cares nobody's deploying apollo token ring anymore it's like joking right and then a thing okay so you know you keep it recent to a few of the reasons career you know the roles or positions you've had if it's in the same company you show that you're growing and you're doing different things uh so there were there were some very good things in there uh but the skills are just a waste of paper if you're trying to get this to one page you want every square millimeter on that page to count for something and it's like well how are they gonna know i'm good at service now like because it's going to say it in the accomplishments so the things yeah these these things are parsed you know i i haven't read a paper resume in decades let's be honest they get imported you can see it in pdf if you want to see the original copy and then you see like a generated parsed up format the the places you upload these two are really good at that and it's going to list out those things for you and if you have to you take your browser and you do a command f and your control f you go find me the word itsm or itil or whatever it is so you know it's in there so use your words very carefully and those accomplishments here's another one those accomplishments one line do not let that line wrap if you can't say it in one line you can't say it yeah so it's yeah there's a whole bunch of little things in there that um we'll we'll dive in deeper on the break point podcast not to give a teaser so you had a lot of these nailed down but i just wanted to say hey there's there's a there's a couple things i'm i'm very passionate about that and that's why i said we should talk and and that's the thing like i it's we're we're this weird network of like information people right so like we should talk i'm like no one there's no way that chuck who by the way we work at the same company our and our colleagues and can comment on each other's stuff regardless of what the public sees they're going to post something negative like that like we should talk like oh no no that's not going to happen chuck's going to reach out on me on teams and be like that's like yeah the uh my my uh sadly my mother-in-law passed away a couple months ago and my daughter who's living in our guest house casita slash in-law house whatever you want to call it these days it's uh my my wife needed to get her attention she sent this message like do you have a few minutes to come over and talk no or it was something like that you know there's something we need to discuss oh god it's even worse yeah yeah so she recently like this past week she did the same thing to come and look at pictures to to hang on the wall right my wife needed some decisions like should we put this picture up and where should we put that one that kind of thing and she wrote pretty much the same words and my daughter just about goes into a panic she's like do you have a few minutes to come over like no please please put in the message to hang pictures are you bad nothing bad i don't know maybe an admirational thing but that like instantly gives me anxiety where it's like someone's like we need to talk or come you know like i need help like even though that sounds like like an emergent problem like that one is better to me than like like we need to talk like that i don't know why like it doesn't make any sense but yeah um yeah it's it's it's how you phrase things is very important because communication is really on the receiver's side no matter what i intended it's it's how mark received that message that really counts and and i was just i was crafting an email the other day which by the way is a skill in itself that we could have a whole whole episode on oh god yes even meeting invites i agonize over those for a few minutes just to make sure that especially as you go up the food chain in the organization really important that you have an objective in a meeting invite i have a two minute timer i have a two minute it delays my min my my email sending for two minutes oh really okay yeah because i i i i freak out and i go okay i gotta read it again right and then i go read it again after i've sent it why would you do that like just leave it yeah leave it in drafts too that's another way to do it it's like i'm going to draft it tonight i'm going to send it tomorrow but i'm going to reread it between now and then yeah i well the thing is even even that like i'll reread it even as many times as i think i need it and then at the end i push send and then for for torture for just sheer torture i read it one more time like why why why once i've sent it do i read it again i don't know but i do so that's why i have that um but i was i was crafting an email the other day and i literally switched two words around i couldn't remember what it was for like for me but i switched two words around and it completely changed the tone of the sentence that i was saying i'm like that's insane like that to me i went oh man i'm a native english speaker right i i realized this and i split it didn't change the meaning of the sentence it just made it sound a little softer and i'm like oh this is not like this isn't cool like english sucks i hate english like we if we could just spit binary at each other that would be so much yeah it's it's got to be the worst language it's just so because it's a it's like a mutt of other languages it has you get so many different root words and and mixed up grammars and silent letters that it's just it's terrible and it's terrible inflections on words that change the meaning it's like oh no no no like we you know as english speakers i don't think we think we think other languages have that i'm like no no we're the king of like inflection like read read and read it's like oh yeah and like that they're read read and read like i i hate i just can't see it anyway you're getting me off topic and this is the talking to me because i hate english i think stupid humans like we don't we're terrible about uh communication but um what i did want to get into which was slightly different from our uh break point episode was uh to talk about interviews right sure and and so i've got i've been using and it's been a lot of fun and if the so uh first we did talk about resumes dang it i i had a slide for it so interviews interviews right um what do you what do you wear what do you you know in in in this day and age i think there's a couple of rules that i would i would say are paramount when you're interviewing zoom zoom wise right first of all show up early like just do it it's the same thing with in-person interviews show up early because there's just you don't know like your camera like i don't know how many times the driver on my camera just decides to stop working for no reason like it's just incremental and it's like okay well this isn't going to work right and if you're for second rule it's if you're in a zoom interview you have to have your camera on there's no option i i i hate oh i can't even fathom trying to interview somebody who doesn't have their camera on i know it doesn't sound like we need to say it but yeah i'm gonna say it anyway like you have to have your camera on and that that means a few things right show up early so that you work through all the technical issues with a mic a camera your laptop anything you know windows updates love to hit at the moment that you don't want them right you you've got it you you just you've got to show up early i i i don't care if that's an interview a client meeting anything five minutes give yourself five minutes now culturally that's u.s right i understand culturally that doesn't translate across everywhere so culturally appropriate to where you are but if you're in the in zoom in the u.s five minutes early please please please five minutes early um i would even say test all that stuff before that well before that five minutes like the night before the morning of yeah test it a couple of times like you said patches and you know turn off all those alarms everything shut down every other program except zoom or webex or whatever you're using yeah silence your other devices mobile whatever it's you you you need to be focused laser-focused on that interview yep yeah and anything that's going to pull you out i mean you can tell right anyone that that shifts their attention slightly while you're trying to talk it's very very difficult to stay on track right like you get that pop-up and you turn and look at it and it's your whole train of thought is gone you're either not listening to the person that is talking to you or you're not listening to the words that are coming out of your mouth which is probably twice as scary so it's it's a skill right it's a skill to be able to see multiple things and talk at the same time you just can't continue to do that so you know you've really got to try as hard as you can to be in the moment and like you say be laser focused um what and so this is a question that i would have today right what what would you wear to a to interview today right would you wear a tie would you wear would you get dressed up like you know can you wear a t-shirt to a job interview i guess no that's the question no not a t-shirt not a t-shirt even if you're working for a t-shirt factory you're not wearing a t-shirt to your interview right dress professionally not professional casual professionally okay that means if you are going into somebody's office to do a face-to-face interview which are coming back yes don't don't be fooled we're not doing the rest of the world's interviews on zoom but if you're going into that building gentlemen you're wearing a tie yeah and a coat and a matching trouser you're basically wearing a suit you're showing you're showing up saying i'm serious about this even if it's casual friday and they say don't bother you know dressing up you dress up yes there's no debating that i'm not going to go into the women's fashion you know what professional means i am like the worst authority i've tried to you know been married for 33 years i know not to comment on women's fashion by this point i'm i'm you know same not gonna go there um but i i would say you know first of all if it's your first job don't go buy a suit for this right like you you don't need to go and buy a suit like if you don't have a suit and you've got a tie and you you can yeah you can wait you know what i you could go to goodwill and get a off the rack jacket just a blazer that goes with the slacks you're wearing so blue blazer tan slacks or black slacks and gray blazers so you know it's just use use fashion advice of how do i how do i match that you know shoes and belt need to be the same like it's it's that old school and go look it up if you've never if you've never looked up the classical like how to dress how to tie a tie right your tie touches the tip of your tie should touch the top of your belt buckle i can't stand like i i can't stand it when i see people that have their time oh you mean like president former president trump who was half the way down to his knees that was a long ass tie i'm sorry but i it was and it started like way up and it went all i'm like where is this tie going like where did it where does it have a zip code of its own if if you're going to the men's restroom and you accidentally zip your tie there's a problem like you shouldn't be able to do that okay it needs to touch i'm like the triangle end should touch the top of your belt buckle that's i i sound like an old guy like i sound like an old man like my dad like oh you got to do this like it's it's that's what it is and i know that's stodgy and i know that's a little outdated for what it is but here's the thing if you are one level dressed above who's giving you an interview right you win you win you win you're already and and i will tell you the story because because um i almost i almost got in trouble for it but uh so every day i was a consultant every day we didn't wear ties it was business casuals polos right and so i said well i i want to move up in this company right like i'm and so i wore a suit and a tie every day every day every day every day and everyone laughed at me and asked me where my interview was and everybody said it was funny and i did it for a year a whole year and you know what i became a senior in that year so i don't know like there's something to be said but it's it's it's important it's important to dress a little bit above where you're at yeah i wore a suit and tie it was matching it was very i could i could walk into a client meeting and it was not loud right i would say it wasn't it wasn't like i was out of place right i tried to dress business not casual but businessy if i could and you don't have to wear the jacket you know all eight hours of the day oh no you hang it on the back of your chair on the back of your cubicle or whatever and then if you're meeting with a customer you bring the jacket if you're going to you know meeting with some superiors you wear the jacket okay if you're meeting with your staff or your team you leave the jacket behind you there's just you go do i need it or do i know it it's better to have it and not need it than needed to not have it right so that's boy that's true for a lot of things in life isn't it it's one of my favorite um it's it's it's it's imperative to to be a little bit more casually or not casual more dressed you know formally than what what the person is one level formally right like now i wore a suit and tie and someone thought it was funny that they were gonna wear a tuxedo which all right that's fine they showed up and for some reason like they were i don't know it was it was just out there right and and that's a bit over the top it was a little bit for special occasions and they got a lot of trouble right they got in a lot of trouble like and so it's that it's i i don't know like i guess for me it's that good disobedience right where i'm like no i i went and actually like bought three suits like there's a purpose to this right and i don't wear a suit like i took i would take the suit jacket off if i was in a sales meeting right like the salesperson's in charge right so i didn't i didn't try to get all fancy and like out show them they were in charge and i let them do that so i mean try to it's situational it's situational it's definitely situational where do you where do you tow the line um from from that end right zoom wear something nice clean the background clean clean it up i mean come on folks like your laundry is on the bed in the background you have a problem the the webcam on your zoom on on your laptop it it is it's there for appearances okay like there's it's don't use that webcam like go go invest a little bit you know and put it on a monitor because that's the other thing right you're you're you're not looking at the person when the webcam is kind of off it's like oh yeah kind of looking right it's clean the background know where you're framing no know what you're framing right understand you are the person you're the subject you need to be big you need to be in front and you need to be visible and that's it's huge for zoom i mean that's absolutely huge for zoom because if if you're sitting there and typing and the it's you know the the laptop is waving like you can see that on the other end and you know you mean like resting it on your lap so you're looking up the person's nose yeah that's nice not even that like even you know sometimes those laptops oh you mean a shaky table kind of thing and then the laptop lid kind of moves as they're talking and they're typing and they're talk and it's like oh man it's so distracting first of all why are you typing during an interview first of all i mean well i mean i guess if you're trying to take some notes right no no no you take notes take notes on paper tablet on paper something else because if you are typing in the thing goes shaky all over the place they don't know what you're typing you could be chatting with someone on slack they don't know so they're going to assume the worst yeah i actually uh we'll probably again another episode idea uh consulting is a skill set right i did i did it once i did it once where i brought my laptop into a consulting meeting and i was taking notes you know my new best friend is my my new best friend is my remarkable tablet i've been looking at those do you have i'm what's your experience with them do you like them i love this thing it that the most challenging part is just how do i organize my notes because you can do folders and folders within folders and it but in terms of just flat out writing notes the the the cognitive skill makes it cement in my head more than if i were to type it into evernote or one note yeah and it's it's been really good i i feel like i retain to your point right if i write it i retain it that's 100 like totally agreed it's old school and i hate it it's the only thing that i'm still analog on and i can't stay like i can't teach my brain to remember things in digital i use um i use rocket book you ever use you ever heard of them i have yep i i actually use a product that i think they're discontinuing um but it's it's the note cards i don't write in notebooks i don't like writing in big notebooks i like writing small concise like little things right um rocketbook uh has these note cards and you can just scan them in it's my favorite it's been my favorite like i just pull i've got a little i 3d printed myself a little note card holder and i just yeah that's it and and see that's that's inconspicuous and when you're writing with a pen or a stylist in a meeting it's clear you're not checking facebook if you bring your laptop in the assumptions are made right there yeah yep it i and and the only reason you should be bringing in a laptop is if you're giving a demo you know oh yeah yeah no first of all don't bring your laptop to a meeting like if you don't if you're if you're going on site you don't need your laptop you're not going to show anything in a pdf like maybe i mean if you're that's going to i mean if you're doing a demo that's you've got some cojones like that's that's quite it like if you're going to pop open a laptop and show a big presentation during your interview on site and that may be part of the interview you know that may be part of the interview but in which case you go hold on let me do a screenshot we're on zoom give me a sec yeah yeah so yeah well and have it up right if you if you think they're gonna ask questions about your pdi or or something you know get up whatever it is because we were talking about this yesterday yeah last stream right you better have it up like have it there and ready to go because just like me just like me last week with my like trying to show the resume back and forth and it didn't work it's like you got to be prepared and by the way i am see look i've got my recipe right here [Laughter] you know what i do too really i figured we were going to be talking about that so i'd mind if they're ready as well let me do a quick screen share on that one uh what screen are we on three all right show that for a sec you got it look at that so notice the lack of white space mr white space i can stop that now stop share screen yeah yep yep short concise it's easy it's i mean it's borderline text file right it is it is you don't need a lot of beautiful formatting no it's just that that adds no value to what your message is your messages here is how you contact me and here's what i've done for other companies that will make me a rock star at your company as well so yeah that's that's what you want to get let's let's let's go into mine just slightly because and this is an eye chart um yeah yeah i will i just have to find the tab zoom um so it it's i i don't know i i found this um this template and i just started filling it out and i think that's why because i said it to to service now this is why like i got hired on but but to your body oh i'm amazed you got hired with that i'm sorry so we'll talk about i want to talk about uh bad interview experiences but uh yeah so to your point i've tried to reduce as much white space as possible i know i use the margins a little bit yeah all that stuff on the left get rid of it that way your your your accomplishments won't wrap right um i'm not seeing any responsibilities though no i didn't i didn't i don't have any called out responsibilities necessarily okay ditch the skills yeah and look just by doing that look how much more space you would have on that one page yeah i need to get a csa that's i i need to see to say i don't know why i was csa why i don't know because i wanted to value what value would it give you in your career right now i i did the same thing like i i have one and i renewed it after it had lapsed for a while right but at this point i'm good that's you know it's kind of like asking if you have a bachelor of science degree 25 years into your career it doesn't matter you have the experience that supersedes that so yeah um here here's where it is for me chuck because i don't know if you've recently uh cma cta program is uh that's a requirement is it a current csa or you just had to have had a csa in the at some point i think it's current okay well no i don't know i'll have to check i'll have to talk to shelly about that and figure that out um so you're going after the cta cma thing i don't know i just don't want to count myself out all right the cma to me is kind of like a an mba the masters of business business administration you know if you've gone to college and got your business your ba degree your business administration degree then a master's in business administration it's like that seven year journey you have to carve out of your life somewhere like the way to get that back to interviews what else did you have uh okay so uh colleen says you have to have it currently um okay so what else did i have she would know she's got a cma yeah yeah um okay favorite interview questions do you do a lot of interviewing check we are currently in the process of interviewing for one of our positions right now how odd yeah how what what timely uh so as an interviewer your best weapon is behavioral style questions oh yeah tell me a time when you blank okay and that blank ties directly back to one of the skills you're looking for on the job description uh give me an example of so when you hear things like that as an interviewee you can give those examples so the best weapon you have as an interviewee is to know your history frontwards and backwards okay so that when questions like that come up and sometimes you gotta think for a minute you go hang on yeah take your time first of all take time a few minutes a few seconds of silence is not going to kill you totally fine yeah you you think it up and you give your response in three to four minutes no more okay and you know what sometimes you don't have that experience you go you know what i've never encountered that situation before but let me tell you what i think about it if i did yeah here's how i would get to there here's how i would and then you know let's be open and honest that you don't have that specific experience and uh they'll probably ask you more questions like if i said hey mark um give me a time when you had to create a live stream right and five minutes before it was time to hit that broadcast button things just fell apart okay what did yeah and you tell me well yeah it just happened last week as a matter of fact we were getting ready to go and my son spilled something all over my laptop fortunately i had a backup plan yeah this is what we did and and i'm hearing how did you get out of that situation what did you do what contingencies do you have you've expressed yourself and i may ask additional questions that go in deeper let's say okay um so you're why was your son in the room in the first place or yeah it's starting to get deeper into not not trying to figure out the root cause but more about your experiences like what software do you use for your streaming because your resume doesn't have to say i use stream yard it simply says you know started a new blah blah blah grew the audience by 50 in the first six weeks so yeah so you're you're telling me an accomplishment and i see that on the resume and i want to know more tell me more about your streaming experience uh streaming do you like it what do you what do you that kind of stuff and that's what tells me i'm as an interviewer interviewer sorry i'm getting a little passionate again i have to slow down i'm trying to imagine you doing the job that i'm looking for exactly how well can mark fit this bill so i've got to find out does he have the experience i'm looking for and your job as the interviewee is not only to fit that picture but help me understand how you're going to excel at that right you know right what what new things do you bring to the table because you know backfilling an existing person is one thing but if i'm opening up a brand new position i say hey mark we're looking for director of digital media right yeah and you're like sure okay what's your strategy on growing the audience and you know tell me about a time when uh something and mark brings up all his great ideas i'm like okay yeah that that aligns with where we're going or you know as an interviewer i hate to say it but i'm always looking for a reason to say no challenge i'm i'm trying to make sure that the person i get is the right fit and if you're not the the right fit i mean not just this is the best of the six candidates we got if we interviewed six candidates and we didn't get the right one i'm not hiring the best one right right that may not be a good fit so exactly yeah there's there's always it's it's an uphill battle and as an interviewer excuse me interviewee interviewee interviewee you want to put your best foot forward but not leave the other one dragging behind exactly yeah you've got it you got to really step into this and have that confidence in your experience to be able to say i can do this for you right and it's it's it's it's pushing pat i would say right you got to keep in mind it's like you had said i'm filling this position but maybe maybe all your great ideas are great and it's pie in the sky right but we've got to put rubber meets the road right now right so there's there's that that double-sided that that you know there's the sword in the shield right like yeah i've got all these great ideas it's like okay great what are you gonna do to fix all of these problems that you may be inheriting too right you have to do both you have to play both sides you have to be able in an interview to prove that you can handle all the stuff that you know skeletons in the closet that you might be inheriting and aren't super fun and don't get like the attention that you necessarily want because it's you know a shadow i.t or it's some some issue that you've gotta go address and then what what are you gonna do that is really really cool right you need to have that kind of an idea of of both sides like how do i fix problems and what are the cool things that i want to be doing it it's super important i mean you really need to the thought process there has to be like you've really i mean you just got to keep trying uh joe joseph lauden who's been on the the stream a few times right he's like i interviewed like you know six seven eight times get the feedback come back with the feedback of what did i do wrong yeah and and and move move on right like move on if it's bad and that that moves me into something like have you ever had a bad interview experience right like what's what what have you ever interviewed someone that that did poorly i i mean let's know as the interviewer i thought you were asking me as an interviewee because either one either as the interviewee i can honestly say no i've never had a bad interview experience that's that's uh not to sound egotistical but i just when the the inter the opportunities oh wait i take that back i did have one i did have one uh and it was based on my assumptions which was a terrible terrible terrible mistake to make do not assume i it was a service now to service now transition that i was making when i was first coming into the marketing department and i assumed that my boss's boss knew who i was and what i did he did not so when he got on a phone screening with me i was doing i was doing a phone conversation with everybody on the team that i was going to potentially meet i talked to todd and i talked to martin and i i already knew the hiring guy and i talked to all the potential teammates and they're like heck yeah hire him today and then i talked to on the on the friday the last person i talked to was the uh my manager's manager and i got a as soon as i hung up i went that just did not feel right did not feel right there's and my job was to create content initially i wasn't a developer advocate i was uh i was making demos more than anything it was still content but it was right yeah garlene who doesn't know chuck that's no chuck so i i get a call like 15 minutes after this from my manager and he said how did it go i said you know i just don't think i hit it off with kevin he says why not i said he just i don't think he knows who i am he says here's what you're gonna do you're gonna send him a few of your videos because his comments to my manager were i just don't think chuck knows how to i don't think he's gonna work out i don't think he make knows how to make content like yeah and this was like 2017 so you know everything i've done is pretty well established by this point right i'm not the new kid on the block like it was 2010 when i first started so you know he said here's what you're to do send them a link to this video send them a link to that video send them a link to that blog and and your web page that has your books and whatnot on it and get a call monday he goes yeah kevin's on board but we laughed for years after that i'm sure what you know when i'm when i'm cranking out like two live streams a week for work and two podcasts for fun and and you know howard would occasionally jab me and he goes i don't think chuck knows how to make content that's all i've been doing yeah don't make assumptions introduce yourself there's a there's a great story about um i can't remember her role was she the the secretary of state condoleezza rice remember her yeah secretary of state i think yeah yeah she would introduce herself to everyone she met even though you know she's a household name right right everybody she goes hi i'm condoleezza and it doesn't matter if the person goes yeah i know right they're not going to be embarrassed that they they knew you right that's not how it's going right right but you'd be embarrassed if you assumed they knew who you were and they didn't that was my mistake and that's one of those career lessons i will never forget don't assume they know anything and if they do and they're like hey you know what we can skip the videos i already know you right you can produce videos like okay great let's move on let's go to the next question but have have enough in the chamber right have enough in the chamber they're going to skip through it like you're going to have to now talk for that long right yeah so it's it when i said know your experience frontward and backward make sure they know you some of your experience too well i mean and and and you bringing proof right is just more proof it's it's here here here's these videos here's this here's that here's uh you know like my favorite one that i think a lot of people miss is uh the the store like put build something and put it on the store right that's awesome to show off like and you don't have to write anything complex i'm telling you i wrote a parallax scrolling widget at one point and for some reason people thought it was the bee's knees i'm like guys this was like 10 minutes worth of javascript experience like it didn't it didn't take that like it literally takes the front page of all the service portals and lets it like scroll a little bit that's it that's all it does and you probably got the code from stack overflow anyway absolutely 100 stole that code which is why i put it on share for zero dollars like i do i knew um but it's good experience and and and you never know you never know who's watching you never know who's looking at it now jay said some people some folks just interview better than others and it's a learned skill it is some people some people you know clean their house better than others you can learn you know it's not something that you you cannot do you you may interviewing is an artificial reality right and if you need to step into that and play that game to get that job yeah so it's like people say well why can't i be my authentic self because that's what they're telling me to be at work great after you get the job let them know who you really are yeah and let your hair down and you know wear the t-shirts if they let you wear the t-shirt right exactly but to get the job you need to play by those job interview rules i totally agree totally agreed it's it's and and i i don't know i i you make content chuck right it's it's there's there's a face that you put out there that it's it's hey this is this is what i do this hi i'm mark scott i you know this live stream kind of it's it's the same thing right you're not gonna like you're not gonna get instagram followers by being like hi right like it and and being flat and not unless that's your stick i guess welcome to the dull boring developer show this is the worst thing i've ever seen yeah this is what i'm going to name the chapter chuck turns it into the boring developer show um but yeah you know it's it's not it's not a lie it's just it's a it's it's you right like the same thing like i i don't i don't go tell my manager that i'm off having beers and hanging out with friends and eating too much barbecue and feeling sick because monday morning i show up and i'm at work and i'm professional right that's that's what it is it's it's just a different version of yourself it's a more professional version of yourself but i and and i can attest to this if if you are if you're interviewing and you're nervous you have to practice you have to prac that you you have to go yes you have to go find somebody and you have to go talk and i'm i'm telling you go talk about anything for 20 minutes go talk about anything for 20 minutes it's a difficult thing to do it's incredibly difficult and that's what interviewing is you will be more comfortable when you get to that situation one hundred percent and you're going to rehearsal rehearsal rehearsal it makes you more comfortable at any kind of presentation and this is a performance this is a presentation you are presenting yourself exactly and you're never you're never going to get past that fear if you've not if you've not done it right and it's it's terrible i know i've i've been there it it makes me feel awkward right when i'm telling my wife i'm like oh yeah in this you know and playing that character and you think that people think you're weird it's like sure they do and guess what when you go to the interview and you're actually your authentic like professional self like you're not going to feel as weird it's going to be awesome like you're going to be warmed up you're going to be ready to go i i don't know if you do this chuck but i uh before i get on the stream or do an interview or do a presentation like i go watch other people that have done presentation i go watch other presentations i go kind of like if i'm trying to be funny i go watch like craig ferguson i love craig ferguson like i go listen to the videos i've watched a thousand times of him that make me laugh and kind of you know the green room experience get yourself warmed up get yourself feeling good about yourself go watch a video that makes you laugh about puppies or whatever whatever it is that gets the serotonin flowing right 10 minutes before you get on that that presentation you're already going to be in there the momentum momentum's going to be going you're already going to be happy and jolly and and talkative and all that stuff that you need to be so somebody is it is same thing like any other performance the somebody told me that before an interview they would you know go through eye of the tiger in their head or something i'm gonna get amped up get the energy up because you're going i i will take energy over skill you know if there are two candidates and they're all things being equal which they never are and and one's got a little more energy and one's got a little more skill i will take the energy person because it just why because that energy will generally translate into a lot more momentum to get more skill well it it translates to the team it translates to other teams like i honestly feel like i was fired on by my manager uh catherine wago who's awesome she hired me on because i was just like this vibrating like intensity like weird guy like i don't know i just i don't know i had fun and i had fun in my interview and mm-hmm jace is knocking on the door you want to let him in jace hey guys no eos webcam utility you know it's totally right we can just uh go without him for a minute i don't know how to pop them off we can still hear them yeah you can still hear me it's just there i don't know i'm gonna have to fix that i was gonna say about that jitters thing i i totally think it's important to try to get and in your interview at a bunch of if you can try to line up a couple interviews yeah especially a few that it wouldn't be the world ending thing if like it didn't go well and do those first yep yep no it's it's it's you have to get the bad one you're gonna suck i i love this this is my favorite saying you're gonna suck suck enough until you stop like like you'll you'll eventually get better and and it's gonna be much like so eat much easier and then you won't be as nervous about it and that just keeps rolling that momentum keeps going where you're like i feel better about this i did a better job like it must not have been you know it was a team fit issue it was a whatever issue it doesn't really matter i mean i i'm trying to roll it back to the worst experience right i i actually in one of my interviews the interviewer tore up my resume right in front of me writing for he was like this is embarrassing because i only had one one job worth of experience right i knew i kept it to one page it was very short um and and it was kind of a joke because we we just clicked we clicked really right away and he knew that he wasn't going to offend me by doing that it's he tore it up right in front of me and chuck to your point years later we still talk about it like oh yeah that terrible resume you gave me oh yeah you did and you tore up a resume in front of me like i loved telling that story it was the actually the who who would later become the president of our company uh he i would tell like new people i'd be like yeah he tore up my resume in front of me he's mean and freaked out i'd freak him out it was funny it was good though it was good it was good experience all right so we're we're over the halfway mark i was i'm thinking about opening this up um so i'm gonna push the button and then i'm gonna put the banner on well i should put the banner on and then i'll push the button i wonder if uh some of the folks from youtube or linkedin will pop on in yeah let's have them pop on in um so i'm gonna hit the open roam um website is open if you would like to join the stream phoenix dev dot me slash show uh and it will take you to the right we'll forward you off automagically to the stream uh or if if you ever want to watch the stream or know where the stream is you can go phoenix show and if i'm not live it will show you the stream which is you're the next stream where you can schedule and hit the like button if you're on youtube smash that like button it's so weird saying that i hate saying that i'm smashing it right now everyone's smashing it yeah let's do it um okay so last one that i wanted to go over while we get some people in the room here is the follow-up we had talked about the follow-up a little bit um you know chuck what what would you say i don't know we skipped over a whole like yeah a lot of stuff in the interviewing i'm gonna give a quick plug for one of the most important tools that i ever got about interviewing and i highly highly recommend it i have i have a a very cursory relationship with these people that over at manager dash tools.com they have a series of podcasts that's a licensed product but it's free for the annual license if you have a personal license so but it's like the best 150 bucks you will ever spend on your career okay it takes you everything from the preparation a lot of stuff that we said here right into the closer did you know there's a closer for an interview yeah absolutely it's like one of the most effective things that most people miss uh and and i've listened to it a couple of times even though i i haven't interviewed more than a couple of times since it came out but uh it's it's very very procedural they make it actionable it's it's like oh i can do that and i can do that and all i got to do is do this to do that uh so a lot of good stuff manager dash tools.com it's like one of the products under the product menu look for interview series yeah if you're watching this if you're watching this on the replay i'll have a link down below awesomeness wrote in the video okay so what did you you wanted to cover uh skip let's not skip if you let's let's keep let's keep trucking like let's keep going so i don't know where do you want to go now you skipped i'm like i don't know well there's there's about six weeks worth of content in there that oh man yeah i know i'm just i'm trying to pick things out as they come out of my brain this show has no structure as a follow-up hand-written thank you notes you should be getting an email address or something from everybody it's not that hard if if you can't find their address you send it to the corporate headquarters and hand written thank you notes hardly anyone does it it will make you stand out and that's what you want right you want people to remember you even if you didn't get an offer even if you didn't get the position you still send a hand written thank you note i have you never know when that person's gonna work with you in another place absolutely they could be a peer you could be their boss you never know what what life is going to throw you down the road could be your boss's boss right it and uh i i honestly was stunned the first time i got one of these because i had just learned this trick maybe two years before yeah and one of the candidates that that i interviewed sent a handwritten i said did you get coached on any schools no i just thought it was a great idea like it was brilliant he eventually got the job he worked for a servicenow partner at least last i heard he did so it was it was a good career starter for him i hired this was like entry-level help desk thing and and he used to work at uh i think it was a mechanics garage or something like dude yeah this is brilliant that you just naturally know this stuff right and most of us need to be taught it i used to have a fun little gimmick that i did with mine uh i bought a pack of like phony million dollar bills and i would put in the note i would say hey thanks a million for the interview thanks yeah i even sent one to fred letty one time shortly after i met him at knowledge10 and uh i said hey fred thanks a million it was great meeting you and your wife and hanging out at the weinstalk about you know potentially writing up dummies books yeah and and didn't know what life had in store for me but about six weeks later i was working for servicenow right and i was in the san diego office fred walks by he goes hey my wife tried spending that million dollar bill you gave me he remembered he remembered yeah and that's exactly what it's supposed to do so you know make it your own have some fun with it but you'd be sincere and you know those how much the thank you notes cost not much no come on and and and the whole big the whole the whole thing i loved about that is you know he he probably stuck it on a desk or a i don't know somewhere like he was like this is great right and and he didn't throw it away right so your name was probably sitting or even if he did he stuck it it was in his brain right and and he he linked you with that and later on he wasn't even involved with my my hiring process right i mean i'm sure tertiary he was like hey we need another guy to do this stuff yeah way down the food chain i think at one point i was like third level to fred now i was like wow seven maybe eight from between me and bill mcdermott yeah we've grown vertically as a company oh yeah i know what's so funny is that because i i think i think i'm at seven from bill is now now two and i think i was like four at one point it was ridiculous i'm like i should not be this close in the org to bill mcdermott like no no no yeah i think it was me the vp of professional services then one other guy than fred no because fred was a ceo back then right right and i was like well that's kind of cool because i didn't have that at my last company i was about five or six levels down sure yeah but it's kind of fun um yeah so now if you you'd mention following up you could i i think it it feels kind of cheap to send an email yeah or a linkedin message or something like that so you know that that just feels too easy and you don't want to be easy you want to be effective yeah it's like breaking up over text message there it's not you know wow yeah it's that voice of experience i'm very check i'm married that experience is long on my friend we didn't even have texting when i was dating [Laughter] although i did have telegrams i did ask those my then girlfriend pony express breaking up by pony express hey that might be a really great way to set a thank you note it's actually like it's kind of expensive it's like 30 bucks but but it doesn't other than the stamp on the letter right it's not like they're going to know like i think you should send a singing telegram thank you for the interview [Music] i'm breaking up with you i'm breaking up i just heard the things i don't like how they work so i don't know 99 invisible go check it out they talk about it she couldn't read morse code am i at fault for that we were talking about that um so so carlita asks a really awesome question you know what are some good questions for an interviewee to ask um and i think i i honestly think that's the most important that's the most important because you're going to get a good feel for a company you're going to get a good fee if you're hire if you're interviewing with a hiring manager right you're going to get a good feel for how they you know interact with people it's it's like you say chuck it's it's a game right we're playing a game it's it's kind of this like feeling each other out kind of a thing um i love interviewing with the hiring manager because i like to say i like to ask tough questions right it's like hey what how do you how do you have hard conversations with your employees like what do you do what's the process like how do you how do you like to you know all right what what's the team dynamic like are you spread across the entire us are you in one spot are you you know what what's your method of communication is it teams is it email is it you know there's tons of things that you can ask that kind of give you a good read on what your day-to-day life is going to be like working don't be surprised if they don't ask you what questions do you have for me the first interviews are generally we're interviewing you you're not interviewing me right we're interviewing you to see if you're a fit for this company if there's a second interview or whatever then there may be an opportunity for them to say hey do you have any questions for me and you know it never hurts to say what are your priorities this year what are you focused on what are the key metrics that drive this group because you want to know what am i in for how many story points do you have in the backlog i would i love asking that question because they're like what do you mean i'm like if you don't know how many story points you have in the backlog it's like that's that's all the stuff you need to be working on when all the stuff that you're doing now is done right like i love hearing that because they're like well i'm not sure it's like well then obviously you don't have a whole lot of road map like there's not a whole lot of runway here for me to land and the questions need to be related to the role you know if you're applying as a developer you don't say uh has the supply chain issues been affecting you yeah great question but not pertinent to this position yeah we'll have fun discussing it but it's not it's not some you know if yeah if you're going i think for for an admin position a dev position any any i mean anything that you would do on a daily basis it turn it around and ask it as a question right it's like how do you how do how does your team check in code how does your like things like that it opens up the door for for a lot of different conversations and especially like maybe you you'll find out like oh well i'm not you know my i'm a manager i'm not technical that's fine that's totally fine you you learn that very quickly if you start asking technical questions now you've got a shift because you can't ask technical questions to a non-technical manager yeah no i don't know if that that i mean yeah it's just anymore earlier chuck you had said that you're trying to find the reasons to say no to a candidate you know because you want to hire the right person but as an interviewer interviewer you should try to find reasons to say no to the company like you might love it but like they're all right problems there and you want to make sure you avoid them the worst thing is to accept a job someplace and then find out something well the purpose of the interview is to get an offer you don't have any decision to make until you've got that offer so if you've got the offer then you can go back and ask additional questions yeah but it's totally it's not i i don't want to get my negatives duplicated here um you know if you if you don't have the chance to do that interrogation and find out more about the company the culture the processes they use to promote their code whatever you know how how much things suck um you know until you get the offer that's fine that's right the ball is squarely in your court once you get the offer goes okay here's how much we're willing to give you you don't have to say yes as tempting as that is especially if you've been interviewing for two months going this is my 12th interview it's the first offer i got it might not be the right company for you one thing i like to do is hopefully you've got a network built up and you can ask some of the colleagues who have either left the company that's very telling why did they leave what did they like what didn't they like i've i've done that for with with different teams in service now you've done it for me i i said hey what you're joining this team what do you like what don't you like you join this company what what works what doesn't work either existing employees that's one viewpoint former employees that's another viewpoint and that's how you can do your research and and possibly get some information that that hiring manager or that hr person is not going to tell you you know because they're trying to make a you know a bright picture of this also when i when i when i went from technical consultant to um i forgot what it was our expert services team it might have still been a technical consultant but it was a shift in position shift in teams two other people there's only like a team of five and two of them left like right before i joined that that opened up the opportunity for me to do what i did in the future sure uh and and i asked them i i asked a couple of people that were on the team i said how long you been on the team what do you like what now what about you know player a and player b that just left what's up with that and you know you find out a little bit of the story oh you know player a wanted to be the manager and he didn't get that so he decided he's going to strike out on his own okay you know perfectly valid reason for leaving a company if it was so you can find out a lot by you know shaking the bushes so to speak without those direct questions in the interview either absolutely i mean and and and my my my my my focus would be trying to find out as much as you possibly can about that position right and that company because this is your opportunity to learn without the risk of getting involved and that's an issue right like if you're involved that's an issue if you're there if you're if you're already an employee that's an issue if you're ready to leave that's an issue right you can't you you can't be involved you have to make this decision completely independently and and and you're not you're not in that day-to-day like understanding of what this company is and it's very very hard to get a good read on that right like from just and sometimes you never will you won't know until you're in the driver's seat yeah exactly exactly and it's just it's i don't know i i've always felt like when i'm interviewing i'm i i it's two ways right it i don't know if it's just a point in my career where eventually i just stopped caring right but it's it's two ways where i had to kind of just like hey you're trying to get a feel on me i'm trying to get a feel on you right and you can ask these tough questions i i encourage everyone to ask as tough a question as you think you need to because you're not going to be able to ask that once you're an employee like you you don't you're already in it like it's it's tough questions that are within bounds within bounds no i'm and i'm not saying i'm not saying if there's a controversial outstanding lawsuit against the company don't poke that tiger yeah like don't don't bring that up like don't talk about that stuff like that's fine you're trying to get a job right so don't be a jerk like don't don't talk about things that might make you feel like a jerk or make someone else feel like a jerk like you just got to be present in that and that's fine right i i don't know it's it's there's a tightrope about what you want to ask if the if the hiring if the interviewer asks you you should be ready with some poignant questions yes basically do your homework yeah if they don't ask great you were prepared like you said you had it but didn't need it and and that's fine but i i do think if someone it gives you an opportunity to ask questions you do need to have a pointed question like it's not it's don't lob softballs because that that sends a message as well right you that may make you seem inexperienced it may make you seem like you just aren't going to say no right there there there there's mine fields that you're going into as well just as much as you're trying to lay traps for them they're laying traps for you right and and it's it's the psychological kind of back and forth that you you've got to figure out the balance you know to your point within reason but but i do think it's easy to to come up with some some questions and you can make questions that seem that seem not pointed that are very pointed one of my favorites is and and i said this before right how do you deploy code to production right if they're like well i don't i mean i don't know we just push the updates that's up i don't know what are you talking about right it's like they just told you volumes with that one line yeah exactly like your answer to that question is incredibly pointed like i i can i can read you like a book if you tell me how you push your code to production because either you care about your developer's time and you want to automate that and that's what you're saying we're on the roadmap to automate devops is a huge process that we're trying to get to et cetera or you go what how do you spell that devops thing i don't know what that is and you're like into danger will robinson like don't do that because i guarantee you'll be up at two o'clock in the morning debugging something one of my favorite questions for execs it doesn't necessarily have to be an executive that's interviewing you but is is ask them what keeps you up at night yeah what what what's your number one priority that's on your mind right now yeah well and that that demonstrates that emotional intelligence too right of like hey i want to help remove that from your plate yeah and at the same time like we're we're you know you and i are going to go to your boss because my job is to make my boss look good my boss's job is to make me look good right like we go we go show this off to everybody or we you know we we we write a paper about it or we do whatever like whatever you got to do to make to to make the accolades right but you share that with that person i mean that's eventually um once you got the job right but if you're really lucky they tell you something you'd go hey i got some ideas about that yeah and then if they're interested they dig in otherwise if they're not they're just don't offer more than you have to and it's it's like that it's that scene from the office with will arnett right where it's like well i'm not gonna give you the whole the whole idea like i'm just gonna give you one point i'll give you point one of third like no no no like no one's trying to steal your ideas in an interview no one's in i mean maybe they are maybe they are but they're they're definitely not going to be actionable like if in 30 minutes i can't tell you my entire master plan it's not going to happen like so you know it give people the benefit of the doubt give them the points talk about it in depth and and you know be open be open and honest like talk about things if if they say something makes them scared talk about something that made you scared in another job like you know i had a similar experience with that it's like now i'm showing you i can handle that kind of stuff right it's it's all that it's that it's that volley back and forth back and forth how you know they're gonna say a question you're gonna go oh i know what you're trying to get to with that and i'm gonna say a question and they might you know it's it's it's a stupid game but you got to learn to play it so nobody else wanted to jump into the waiting room i mean and i got so nervous i got so nervous i was like did my api requests not work and so much i have a special link with scott with one step yeah jace is a team member on this so he can he he helps co-stream a lot of stuff so gotcha yeah yeah but that's i had that idea where i was like i gave i gave check the direct link i gave jace the direct link of like is the is it not open i'm like no you guys are just a bunch of cowards so you should just give us all the the non-direct link anymore mark maybe no one's interviewing right now oh i know tons of people that are interviewing and in fact in fact i know someone that is in a very similar position to what you had described earlier about um you know good good good bad like oh no what do i do now and i've tried i'm like go get feedback go you know it's it's tough it's tough i mean it's just it's tough out there but uh the good news is you're in a you're definitely in a in a seller's market here right it's there's there's positions i would say you know within reason right wear a tie show up early give your best do do everything you're supposed to but i would also say don't put up with anything because there's a lot of positions right now like if someone seems to be giving you the run around and like there's a lot of positions that you can go and fill you don't need to go do six panel interviews like it's it's not oh if i walked into a panel interview i'd walk out yeah i i firmly do not believe they are effective you don't get the right information and it's unfair to the interviewee it's true i will not i will not do an a panel interview i i i'm that strong against it the other thing that i will not put up with is these these goofy questions that really don't have anything to do with the job you know the whole golf ball is filling a bus thing that's a classic one how many mirrors are there like i know what they're after they're after can you be an analytical thinker and break this problem down you know and if my if my resume and my experience don't speak to that i don't want to put up with your shenanigans well beyond that if if you are that if you are so uncreative that you want to test my creativity by giving me a blank question like that from what from from some like website or book from somewhere like no bad like that's not cool like you suck i don't and you're trying to test me like that's not cool i i'd lob back at them if they sprung one of those on me i say all right i'm gonna put on my analyst hat here for a moment help me understand what job description requirement this pertains to how does this fit into the proceed the job that you perceive me doing right right right i want to know i honestly do because i i'm not making the connection here maybe it's my ignorance maybe it's you copied it from google i don't know right right what do you guys think of those like sort of whiteboard coding sessions at some places too i i think you know where they're like they propose a problem they ask you to solve it and like not real code on the whiteboard just even like how you might solve this specific scenario like i don't know i'm going to take it one step further there's other places that send home like a take-home assignment sorry no i don't know i have no idea i i have i have asked people to do assignments before it because if i don't know what uh you know we're interviewing for somebody who makes content if i don't know what their content skills look like i'd say hey jace uh i want you to make a five minute video telling you know somebody about tables fields and forms okay sure just this is somebody who's an experienced developer new to the platform and you're telling them how to make a table in servicenow have that to me by friday yeah and you'd go off and do that and you know maybe it's demo maybe it's talking head maybe it's powerpoint i don't know it's up to you show me that you can do this job there's a little snippet of the insight that i want that's that's a homework assignment that i would expect when i was interviewing for the help desk i was i had this framework of how people should answer the calls and it was based on what was it um it was like 33 points to success or or getting to something i i forgot it had a catchy title but i don't remember but it was it was things like uh do you repeat back the numbers that the caller gave you right so i would have this scenario and i would have a little script and i would say hey hi i'm having problem with my computer and i would see how the dialogue goes and then i would score them like okay i gave them a reference number did they repeat back the reference number wow it was it was it was that detail so you have these little milestones that you're looking for so scenario-based stuff isn't bad i wouldn't sit down and you know make somebody script something no no i if they've shown the aptitude to learn a new language quickly well hell we have to do that every what two or three years ourselves you know i didn't know angularjs before service portal came out i sure as hell didn't know jelly before i got on service now so it's it's like show me you can learn quickly and apply that and show me you can solve problems and you know again we're we're talking developer role here but oh yeah uh if i was looking for a you know marketing manager it'd be a totally different set of questions but the the idea maybe we should get into how an interviewer should prepare oh yeah i mean we could do a whole a whole episode on just yeah i mean i literally are a post of questions just so i won't have to think about the questions to look up to right to find it it's not that hard if you know what you're looking for it starts with that job description what skills am i looking for and what questions can i ask to understand if the person has those skills and put those into a behavioral style question tell me about a time when give me an example of and then you you dive in deeper if you need to it's like oh really what happened when it didn't you know work that kind of thing and you can pair you can pair technical with behavioral questions and this is what i i like to say my one of my favorite interview questions whoever's taking notes right is when what what are you know what what do you like about script includes tell me about script includes just tell me about them just tell me just talk to me about script includes for five minutes right it's like you learned a lot about people you know about like okay tell me about flow designer jace he can't he doesn't like flow designer he doesn't i mean i can talk about it it's fine it's so great i mean you can talk about it in an interview right so so if i told jace if i'm like jace pull 10 minutes of flow designer out of your butt right he could do that because he has a cursory understanding of the technology right yeah you can get through it he doesn't use it on a day-to-day basis it's the perfect like keep it high level don't go into detail like et cetera et cetera right but if somebody asks me to tell you the very finite differences between work legacy workflow and flow designer oh i'm sure i would flub up on it oh yeah because there's things in floor design i don't know i have i have i have there's one i've done one interview where i've gotten to this one question like in i've ran out of questions like the guy like the this guy was phenomenal i really liked him um and and my one interview question that i'm like this is a really like if you tell me you're an expert on the platform like this is the interview question that i go to the bag with it's it's mean it's a mean question and it's ui actions can be both client-side and server-side how is that possible and people are like like there's so many words in that sentence where they're like wait a minute wait a minute maybe wait wait wait whoa like and well if they didn't know that it means they haven't used them that way before first of all yeah first of all but second of all it's like you haven't been on sn guru for like i can see the post on sn guru that is that whole explanation and that would be a great question to ask these people coming out of like uh these boot camps and these bridges that's a terrible question no no no no no no no no no sorry i should have phrased it differently it might be a great question to ask them where if they know what snc guru is because like i bet that's falling out of people's purview i mean it doesn't get new content nobody's like i don't get wrong that's where all my stuff came from the very beginning mark stenger hey wake up he's busy um yeah it's it's it's things like that like that's my trip up question right so as an interviewer i'm not trying to be mean it's not and i say it's me i i preface it i preface it by saying this is a really mean question and it really is in my opinion but it's just it's a rough question if you're watching this video on demand and it's because you know that i'm about to be my dog is sitting here puppy why why he comes in from the one side and goes to the other my bad sorry if if if you're getting to this question for me it's because either one i've run out of questions and you've answered everything correctly or two you claim to be like this amazing like i wouldn't if i didn't know this question because i had it memorized in my head i i wouldn't be able to answer this kind of a question like it's an unfair question and i do it on purpose because if you're gonna say this is like the best thing ever and you think you know you've known everything and you've touched everything in the platform i'm a full stack servicenow developer i'm like well then you know the question you know the answer to that question like i i don't i don't like that term full stack i hate it because i'm like you can't know everything so you better learn you know ui actions it's like everyone needs one so you better know what this is and that's my whole like you can't be a full stack developer you just never knew you asked how it's possible you just check the box it says client [Laughter] it's done if if we get to the point if we get to the point in the interview where i've asked that question and that's your answer i'm just gonna rage quit it's just like no man i'm good i'm just gonna see if i can push mark's buttons i gotta find that position so i can interview with mark scott just to see him do it so first of all here's here's where my my content has not proliferated proliferated where i'm like i i this is probably the third or fourth time i think i've talked to you about this question chuck like i talk about this question all the time someone better be taking notes on this stream because if they if they answer all of those questions correctly and then they get to that one and they know this one and they go oh i've seen this one in your video i'm gonna like hire him hire that person like hire them right away they watch my content hire him there's only four people in this world that according to street art there's only two on the stream so i don't know who the other two are chuck i don't know who they are i got i got a number 11 on the uh linkedin page yeah i don't think it works that well for the linkedin i've got two on youtube yeah i'd i know facebook works if you if you on streamyard if you hover over the the number it'll show you the breakdown of where they're watching that's amazing i didn't know that that's cool okay well and because now we're learning new things right and bar's putting javascript in the in the chat you guys like [Laughter] jace just like left he's like i'm out current updated before business rule i'm out of here jason [Laughter] you know it's there's there's places that everybody has but you know closing this out right i think there's there's places in the platform where everyone has that sticky question right learn just know it just just get a general understanding and if you get someone that asks a question like that and you don't know the answer say it say you don't know the answer i'm not familiar with that i'll have to i'll have to i've never exp i've never had the experience before exactly it's not it's not it's better than lying about it and getting caught absolutely 100 i'd rather be honest because you may be put in a situation with a customer where or you know eve internal or external customer where you're put into a situation where you have to say i don't know and i want to see how well you say i don't know exactly yeah 100 yeah we have a new guest on the stream and i'm going to add this person's hi hey how's it going good i'm sorry now now [Laughter] car car is that what we're good is that are we good with car car car car is great that's what i put in all right i'm gonna call you carlene carter it's a short i thought it was short for carcaradon carcaradon which is the megalith shark from the yes the dinosaur era yes i am a shark i just feel weird about saying people's name on the internet i'm like well so you could always go with my real first name which is car wing carlene yeah i just you know you didn't put it in didn't put it in the box and so i got a little weird a little weird about it but that's okay like i lean with a car yes or jolene with a car [Laughter] i love that where are we going with this i don't know i don't know harley how i i'm glad that you're on the stream anything specific you wanted to add color three what's on your mind yeah so i i think we've been we've been talking or you you i feel like i'm part of your conversation so far we've been talking about you know interviewers asking the right questions and i think one of the really important things is to make sure that the people that your interview or the people that are you put in the interviewer seat have skin in the game that they really care about um that position being filled because i think a lot of times it's just kind of this round robin like who we've got to do this interview panel not a panel but like a series um and who's available who can we just bring in to to ask the questions so you can kind of tell that i think that's probably where some of the google style interview questions probably come from absolutely i don't care whether this position gets filled or not i just have to give a score and it's important to understand that different people are there for different reasons you know this person may be looking to find out is this a strategic thinker for example and they're going to be asking they're not going to be asking technical questions right whereas you know a potential teammate of that interviewee is going to be asking you know a different level of questions so you may as an interviewee you may be getting you know like wow those were completely all over the place well it's because those people's positions are probably completely all over the place and they're looking for different attributes for that position or they're only asking about what they're feeling pain about at that moment yeah no that's a good point yeah and and to i mean to to bring it full circle right that that is the that that exact scenario that exact scenario is why you need a one-page resume right because it's it i call it the bus right people just pull up the bus and they go who can interview today like who's free who who can get on this panel right you and if you're gonna try to combat some of that at all you you can't have a 10-page resume like no one and the guy that just got your like meeting invite to interview you five minutes ago is not going to go through your 10-page resume oh speaking of 10-page resumes i did find out that is an acceptable format for the government my son-in-law is applying for he tried the one-page thing and it didn't work they said no we want your detailed work history like back to when you were 10 years old painting a fence for a buck an hour you know that that's what the government wants and as soon as he did that he got his government job so yes there are still crazy government processes yeah as much as we're trying to fix them with service now it's just come on if the of course the us government's like no i need it in long form i have the last three we did was uh uh uh tax day i i didn't even realize i should have brought it up and like caused people anxiety and i didn't um but like they the irs kicked back my taxes say my wife had already filed i'm like come on guys like could we put this process in service now it'd be so much easier that that right there is the occupational hazard of working with this platform everything's an opportunity i can fix this if you let me this would be so not terrible if i could just move it over here why are you handing me a clipboard at the doctor's office i should have been filling this out on a tablet before i even got here the whole reason i i thought of that is because their solution to the i'm having a problem i couldn't file the taxes e so their solution is just send mail it in i'm like who who's who's whose failure point goes hey just mail it to us that'll be so much easier that'll be so much easier just mail it i'm like oh man oh well but yeah cool um other other questions comments questions does anybody know no i don't know i'm just so happy to be awesome we're happy to have you on hanging out yeah i uh usually cut this off at about one hour we went we went one one one and a half almost now so this is great i missed the first part of it but that's okay we started on resumes we were kind of having a recap of last week's resume show yeah well and again there's no format to this show i don't nobody pays me to be here there's like there's a guiding direction there's there's a loose there's a loose affiliation with an idea like that's it that's as far as i've gone is let's do resumes oh next week next week now we're talking refrigerators [Laughter] come on i swear one day i'll be like fixing my car and i'll be like okay does anybody know how to fix the rear blower in a 24 in the 2014 dodge caravan come on stream like let me know i'll take your call um no uh next week i want to do uh and jason's gonna um do this in this new show imposter syndrome i think that's a awesome uh subject to tackle right how do you get over it what how do you feel it what is it right because i think a lot of people don't really understand what imposter syndrome is um and and and what are some tools like i use i'm hoping to have other people on that give some of their tools because it just like a resume it is uh incredibly personal right it's it's very much like what you feel and how you do it so um yeah join us next week same time same bat channel same bet time um yeah all right so let's go we already kind of went around the stream um but uh chuck do you have do you have anything you want you know what are you selling that you'd like to pitch here you can find everything about me at chuck tomasi.com t-o-m-a-s-i that's where you'll find the work stuff the fun stuff the books the podcasts if it's there it's my hub of the internet awesome and uh carlene anything anything you want to pitch uh i'm not selling anything today no um but if you want to find me i'm carlene carter on linkedin and i love talking about servicenow and i think somebody said script includes earlier script includes make me very happy plus low code too i'm i'm migrating towards flow designer actions i know i know but i still love less code is better yeah we'll love to trace through some of those script includes and figure out what's going on that makes i remember shortly after i started i think you and jesse were just starting to work on surf like making it a thing and wow i think jesse asked me what do you know about script includes at the time i didn't i mean i was like i definitely used them as a customer like i did an itsm implementation i didn't need to do a whole lot of custom script includes but once i got a hold of him like oh yeah this is the libraries i've been looking for yeah yeah yep all the freedom and scary stuff and and um unsupportable code and just it was that first taste of reusability right right modularity yes yep no because i have to write something and i think i'm going to have to call it from somewhere else which at this point i just assume i'm going to have to call it from somewhere all right now go on script include my mine is if i think i have to test it you know i have an idea of what i want to do in code i'll put it into a script include because then i have a unit testable thing and then i'll immediately go and write the test script first to go if i give it these inputs do i get these outputs every time sunny day rainy day let's let's beat this thing up and then when i drop it into a business ruler i drop it into some other place i know it's going to hold up because i tested that thing seven ways from sunday and i should never have to think about it again unless of course i have to go change the inputs and outputs right curse you api modifications and then and then you'll hate yourself because like i got to change it here and in the test and all the way and it's like man i i write i write crappy code i should just not write unit tests for this well one way to avoid that is pass objects in and pass objects out then you don't have to worry exactly if the parameters change like yeah okay well at least i got to just change the object and then you say but what if they don't pass that new active parameter inside the object you go assume it's true yeah no i i'm oh god we went way off top we're talking about returning scripture clues again i'm like like yeah i always return an object like very seldom do i just return a single value sooner or later we're going to talk about functionality is my resume that's the option there you go nice hook i brought it all back around i love it i appreciate we used to have this game at work it's like sooner or later the conversation will turn to box car willie it always does always does there you go yeah i can't i can't wait till uh uh employees and in person that's i'll just box car willy people are like what are you talking about i'm like out of just coming up that's in person can't wait yeah in person knowledge in person knowledge it's been far too long but it feels like a millennia and it's only been three years i know and you're you're jetting off to new york instead of driving up the road to new york to las vegas yeah because i gotta get over to sydney as well no brad and earl will be in las vegas and the hague so we sort of split the domestic and the international you'd think i mean you're oh well earl might be i don't mind going to sydney because it'll help me get my american points back that just finally my status expired at the end of march see that's that's the whole reason i want to go to knowledge because i've got a caesar's rewards card i'm like i need my points man i need my points all right well i um i'm going to close it out i i appreciate everybody thanks man for jumping on chuck continue again carlene yeah nice to see you too awesome i'm glad we could get together um now do you play your new uh intro at the outro or how do you do that out true i only had time i only made an intro and sorry chuck i don't know all right hold on i'm pushing the is it done yet is it done yet it's out before we have to do that business all right the old naked gun thing or police squad where they had to hold still yeah well the camera was still rolling the coffee's pouring out of the pot yeah that whole thing oh i'm so glad you got it all right thanks everybody this is great i'll have an outro for next week maybe bye everybody