all right we are live hello everyone hello my name is mark scott also known as phoenix dev and i am your host this evening with me as always well not always sometimes with me sometimes andrew albury door it's me the the thunder from down under whoa okay well that's interesting cool all right and and we've got we have a special special guest mike barr hi mike parr hey mark how are you good good glad to be here good to kind of see you it's audio which is great that we're testing this because i love it um because i did want to enable people to just have audio only and not have video because i think that's an option right people should be able to do that so is it coming in clear yeah buddy yeah you're saying um today's topic before before we get too too far into this um today's topic is resumes i was talking i was talking to you gentlemen um earlier uh about your resumes i think uh mike you had said you haven't updated yours in over six years that's correct wow um i actually printed mine out so we've got props uh and andrew yours you said yours was like 10 pages oh no i did not say that all right well before we get into it i'm going to open a beer because i'm very thirsty so um andrew i know it's like what it's like 8 a.m your time right 10 30 in the morning 9 30. i was close man that was the best i've gotten but you know mike if you've got a beverage go ahead um anybody in chat hey chat um i've been neglecting chat just a little bit unfortunately kevin's been waiting for quite a while so i'm gonna throw kevin up here um and and joseph as always hey joseph um i i want to get through our topics but i do i do want to let everybody know that i i've kind of been planning and thinking that maybe we could do this i didn't expect mike and andrew to be here um but what would be really neat is if we could actually um i want to get some people from chat on the stream so i'm going to open this i'm going to open it up um i'll tell you in a few minutes how to get there because i don't want it to go insane at the moment like we'll just kind of ease into this make it really easy to do um so first thing i want to do let's get through our resume content then we'll allow people if they've got questions or comments that want to come on later um to you know badger us and come on the uh give everyone the the link it's a very easy link and we'll let that happen um awesome so resumes resumes are super super interesting i don't know if you guys i love resumes it's it's my favorite topic it's um i hate resume resumes i hate like come on what is the worst part about interviewing and getting a job it's like yeah i guess interviewing is pretty bad that's not everybody's favorite but how do you how do you make one page about yourself right like how do you make one little page about yourself and and tell everybody about you um it's very hard very very hard yeah it's not easy i am i think the the idea that i had before where i always said just a picture of yourself you know on one page finger guns yeah then when you get the interview you're like oh i say you liked my resume yeah no that's great no that's perfect it's got to be finger guns because because then it's like a self-fulfilling prophecy right you're like i knew that was going to happen i was going to get the job that's why i already had him yeah cocked and loaded man maybe maybe that's what i should actually do to all of those recruiters that just send me random oh we see your service now developer here is job send cv yeah yeah it's like uh actually this is in a different country but here is my cv here it is it's a qr code that takes you to just a video yeah and then on my shirt is another qr code that's rickroll to be honest with you that meets my seven second criteria i would probably interview that person i'm not joking i i if if you gave me finger guns i'm like you know what all right let's see what you got let's see what you got yeah yeah um we're we we've got another person joining the stream here here's jace hey jace oh no yes quick intro you're famous now buddy it's our famous newscaster yeah your your famous news show now that's been uh that's been going viral this is super blurred no okay there you go you're oh no wait there you go all right what to get back over yeah better you got you guys like my news episode i put up yeah that was great three minutes sub three minutes right and that is joseph's uh advice like from the last stream right you know i've been watching a lot of gary vee and listen really closely with joseph said the last time i was on yeah try to make it as short as possible i thought maybe i should make shorter ones like little ones through the week but that seems like a lot more interesting kevin says you are famous the bearded wonder the beard yeah yeah this morning actually i woke up and there was snow inside again in minnesota are you kidding me it all melted no i'm not kidding you my co-workers told my other co-workers to stop doing the winter dance outside they're like no i'm gonna keep doing that what is the winter dance i i mean it's like you know like maybe you know like we used to do rain dances to ask for rain from the weather gods i yeah i'm from phoenix there's no such thing as a winter dance we have we have summer and we have spring and that's it those are the two in between and right now all the all the all the native plant life have figured out that it's spring they're like oh okay and so like my my allergies have been crazy it's disgusting everything is blooming it's uh it's so terrible meanwhile we're actually um coming down or out of summer we had a cool summer we only had a couple like 35 36 degrees celsius days which i think is up up near a hundred or something fahrenheit um and now we're heading into what dry summer as opposed to wet summer that's right summer yeah that's awesome i cannot believe how hot it gets down there for you guys upside down andrew yeah yeah it's a bit warm sometimes well everyone's preparing for fire season down there too now right oh probably after the um the fires we had before um before covert hit you know 2019 yeah that was pretty nuts yeah all right well i i hate to hate to ruin a good time by bringing up a completely irrelevant topic but uh resumes let's do it i mean i don't think it's irrelevant i mean it's not irrelevant but right so i i wanted to start out so first of all everyone has their own version of a resume right there are no wrong answers there are no right answers everything i'm about to tell you and everything that all these people are about to say and everybody that comes on the chat everybody everyone's going to have their own opinions every everyone every single person you'll ask is going to have a completely different set of criteria for resumes every single person so there are no wrong or right answers that being said there are some wrong answers i agree there are ways to make your resume go into the bin yes yes there are first of all i oh man crashed i can't i can't change my slides it's all gone what happened why do my slides not change you've let me down in my first presentation like come on no no are you recording this i i mean yeah it's going to youtube that's you know whatever oh i see um yeah but anyway i'm not trying to it just crashed everything that's crazy let's see all right let's go back oh there we go okay so resumes right i have seen some things and this last week and the reason i decided to talk about resumes was i saw a nine page resume on linkedin today or uh this week nine pages did it have a plot i don't know it needed an index and a chapter list like wow like nine pages is ridiculous like that is over the top if you cannot trim yourself down from nine pages you have an issue like you did not understand the assignment i'm sorry so i've seen some things and let's i think in some parts of the world though that's expected i mean okay so i don't know but like i've heard that like okay they want like all those expectations yeah yeah so joseph says it was actually a novel um so look here's the deal i'm talking about us culturally i'm talking about u.s i'm talking about you know i i mean i guess i would say servicenow right i work at servicenow i'm i'm not the stream is in no way sponsored by servicenow um but but i i would say these are my experiences this is what i would say is best practice when interviewing for a job you would want near me so that's what i would say now andrew i'm gonna i'm gonna i'm gonna put you on the spot and go in australia do they have i mean they do a lot of weird things but how's that how's the situation with resumes is it multi-page or is it single page um honestly like i have recently been hiring at my job right and my manager took a job at servicenow thanks um left me by myself with a team that had two or three vacancies and it was pretty much i i need to get resumes and do hiring and all the fun stuff and you know i think 100 percent head on like nail on head keep them short and concise um but it's not just that either like for me when i look at a resume um the the stuff that i've been focusing on i guess it kind of it makes a bit more sense it's like you know for a service now position we talk about the the modules you've been using certifications you know if they're there or not um and work history is pretty pretty important for me so there's some resumes where i've had trouble telling where you've been and sometimes i reckon that might have even been on purpose right he'll have a day a particular resume that i saw and i don't think i interviewed just had a list of about 30 projects and some of them were sort of um are implemented you know incident or uplifted incident or something and it's like um i i don't think there was a lot of work there i think it might have just been a story to add a formed uh a field to a form and let's be honest right if everyone's implemented incident let's just pretend like let's just pretend everyone said it like we've all done it everyone's done it like that's not an accomplishment i'm gonna put on my resume sorry yeah yeah so um i think that resume was about three or four pages and by the end of it i was like hang on let's go and actually look at these actual places and i think they'd been with a partner for eight or nine years and had moved up through like a support ba kind of thing into servicenow for the last couple years and i think for me if if i were going to have a quick read on this person i guess whether that's a positive or negative read um i want to sort of know if you're applying for a servicenow job how long have you been in the servicenow space even if you've been at your job for 10 15 years have you been doing it for one year have you been doing it for three years what kind of major projects have you worked with and that's kind of what i need um so if you try and obscure that i think i can't really see that working in your favor yeah i'm so i'm with you i i'm there i'm i'm i'm just nodding along because i'm like yeah you're stealing my slides like sorry here's the thing i want to touch on because i think what a lot of people are hey there's a reason to watch this stream first of all i'm going to put myself bigger there's a reason to watch this stream because if you're if you're taking notes right andrew was in the position where he very quickly needs to fill a position right he he has to get it done i'm not saying currently but you know in that in that regard if i am going to go through 100 people let's just pretend and i don't know 30 of them have resumes longer than a page do i really want to go read that like that's a lot of reading like that's a lot of reading that's two per you know let's just say so that's 66 people that's that's a lot of pages right like doubles you know per person it's like holy cow that's a lot of pages no one's going to go and do that and that's been that's my that's my big point that i wanted to bring up it's one page it's one page it's one page it's one page i i don't care who tells you what it's one page resume should be one page and here's people like tweets because they're short because they're short and they don't have attention spans and here's the thing if you want if you think it's not about attention span if you think that it's not about i don't know anything right let me tell you something about multi-page resumes i have i have a prop here i printed out some paper that has nothing on it because i didn't want to be this mean to somebody's resume but pretend i'm andrew in a hurry trying to hire this position and all of a sudden i lose the top sheet and what do you think happens to this it goes in the trash it immediately go this one was ripped i'm not gonna look for it it's in the trash and if you want to take that risk right if you are willing to take that risk with multi-page resumes that's fine go ahead here's the other thing if your resume is front and back this part i'll argue maybe but do you really want to take the risk that i'm going to turn the page over nine times out of ten people don't read directions anyway have you seen people like line up for a hot dog like it takes people a lot of mental power to get like do you really think that someone's gonna turn it over that's a risk you're taking a risk right i i honestly think that people that have multi pages and and front and back right they're taking a risk andrew i'm going to you yeah i'd like to point out the fact that i haven't seen a printed resume in about 10 years just fyi all of the hiring i did was digital pdf sent through from hr i scrolled i agreed it's a risk though right again you're it's a risk how much are you sure they're not gonna because how many and and andrew you haven't you know arguably haven't been in the office but i have been physically handed a resume within the last 10 years i would say that right okay i'm not saying it's impossible and i agree everything's going digital but the the worst part too about some of the two-page resumes is when the important the good stuff is on the second like it's half of the second page you know it's like you're putting all this stuff and it's like i and then you flip it and you're like why didn't you put this up front and center like this is what i wanted to see you know but now i'm throwing it out so i here's here's a great question how do you how do you show projects on your resume right so like mike to your point how do i show a project on my resume instead of just this overall like j like i just make this one one page like oh well whatever like it doesn't show anything right and i think what you're talking about like having multiple pages right it no one's gonna go through that like they just don't have the time and i'll show you here's here's my answer to how do you do that this is my resume and i'll share this with you guys if you'd like my my resume i picked two okay i picked two my top two employment my top two projects and then i've got some roles and my certifications unfortunately i only have one certification so it just happens to fit you notice how it just happens to fit it just happens to fit that's why because it's all it's a singular it's one and i i narrowed it down i didn't write about every project right i can't i had to pick the top two and especially especially if you're going for a job where you know something about the company right if i'm gonna go get a if i'm gonna go work with phil swann at rangoo right i'm gonna talk about the security projects that i've done right i'm gonna pick two security projects and i'm just gonna hammer that because i know phil loves security projects right phil's a security person that's what i'm gonna try to talk about so i make i do two it's two jobs of you know two two experience two jobs two relevant jobs two relevant projects and then just a word cloud of skills and my certifications and you're out and that's all you need and by the way here's the last thing this is the last thing i'm gonna harp on about mine if or well two last two things if i quickly show this to you and then pull it away what was the first thing you guys saw the color okay the color blue let me give it a second more then i'll go down what was the first thing you saw your name my name my name is the biggest thing on this piece of paper and i'll have two first names yeah three actually but i'm not a serial killer i promise that's my that's my only joke that's the only one i've got about my name okay so right down here in the footer i can't see it i know i'm sorry [Music] it's it's the focus is set for here um it's it's actually it's my name and my phone number again because and i swear i swear this has happened to me i swear it was torn up in the middle of our interview as kind of a joke right i got the job by the way but then then if these two sheets of paper hit the floor at least if someone picked up the bottom half and said wow that's kind of an interesting experience and they could still get in contact with me and if you don't believe that people are operating on this level that's exactly that's the level everyone's operating at and you're fighting other people that are thinking about this stuff the way that i am it's insanity but you have to do that stuff you just have to yeah um something i'd like to probably ask point out about that two rule that you've got there when i'm looking so i get emailed a resume i open the pdf assume it's two to three pages because most of them are i do a quick scroll and honestly like stuff that i've seen in bold or headings will catch my eye and then the next thing that i start looking at is like in in our position we're hiring for a senior dev whatever the the length of experience right so how if you're only showing two jobs assuming you've got four like i think i'm on my third or fourth servicenow position how can you communicate that you have that experience i've been in servicenow for five six years which is a pretty big whack for a developer now um how do you communicate that effectively yeah definitely is so i guess that that question is to the panel right so i mean what i would say is it's it's about first of all you need to again i would say going into an interview you have to understand the platform is so vast right now like it doesn't if you just say itsm right it's not it's not enough like you have to be specific it has to be incredibly specific about what did you do you know was it was it administrative was it developer and then i think that's what you sit there and kind of embellish right it's it's here's here's point one here's point or here's here's job opportunity one here's job not opportunity here's job i worked one job work i worked two even if it's just one right you you put that list of here are the things that i did here are my daily duties here here are the plugins that i implemented or i implemented plugins right that whole that that's a process in itself right i think you list out everything that you can think of on the platform of here's what i'm here here's what on a day to day i'm doing i think if you have the inverse problem right where you don't have enough and and i think kevin's talking about you know how do you handle working for numerous companies i think it's in the same vein right you do the same thing you've got to digest it what was the best possible experience because i know i'm gonna go interview for this company right what's the experience that's relevant i've gotta get it to that relevant experience and just smush it down right and then the same problem in reverse right if i'm gonna go and get a job for you know this partner and i know that this partner does these type of implementations first of all do your research figure out what the partner is you know what is their specialty do they work on long projects do they work on short projects not that you're going to be able to find that out very well but maybe you could ask somebody right things like that like that that kind of metadata about what the company does digest that and put that into your resume it's like if they're security focused you need to talk about how you implemented grc you need to talk about how you implemented you know all of these security plug-ins or if you didn't at your job how you went and got a security certification in you know wow you tried to champion you did this you like anything that you did in your pdi right and i i know that there's going to be some people that are watching this that it's their first time right it's their first job at servicenow talk about your pdi what did you do what why did you do that what what did you implement how did you you know when you messed with stuff like did you learn something did you did you break something and have to fix it my i mean holy cow i'd love to have an interview with someone that said i don't i don't have any servicenow experience but i broke this on my pdi and then i fixed it and then sit there and have a conversation with them about it because that's that's job experience right that's the kind of stuff i want to interview you for um so i think the big the the big thing that you know the if you're gonna distill this down and this was my final point right it's a tool right this your resume is a tool it is not supposed to be your portfolio it is not supposed to be an exact representation of who you are on a page right it is supposed to just open the door in interviews so that people can talk to you about things my opinion hot take right it's only supposed to be this this conversation starting tool so mark i want to i want to circle back to the question you asked me about how do you highlight your projects your wins and things like that on your resume and one of the things that i do you know so let's just say an itsm implementation it's a simple one but the way that i word it in my resume is that company a and i don't put dollars in dollar amounts but you you should because it it matters to a company you know so the way that would phrase certain my projects or my highlights is that this company was spending a ton of money on manual resources when we took i did this implementation which allowed us to automate these processes and and thus the company has now saved you know 30 percent off the bottom line or whatever it is you know numbers quantify it absolutely exactly tell kind of tell that story you know i i did an itsm implementation okay great you changed form layouts you did a couple of business rules nobody cares about i mean we care but when you're doing that interview it really comes i think kevin said this the value that that that you brought to the company that's what people look for that's what i look for when i read a resume what value did you bring you did an itsm implementation but why you know and beyond that having that on your resume right like first of all as as someone that that is that might be in an admin position or a junior developer position right putting that on your resume shows this emotional intelligence of like not only did i did i do this i measured it and then i used it to my advantage right like like it's such a great idea like put put numbers to it and i'm not so the next thing that comes out of my mouth i want to preface this by saying don't like if you can't measure it if it's not something that you could could physically measure gauge it right come up with a gauge like like figure out if you can come up with a metric that could you know if if you think if if there were 40 people at work and you help them all 40 people do a better job right it's like okay multiply 40 times eight hours a day times five days a week right it's like do that math and then come up with it i'm not saying fib i'm not saying make numbers up i'm saying you know come up with a reasonable estimate because that's still good it's still good enough because no one's going to go double check your work right right don't don't lie but at the same time give yourself credit where credit is due you know and when you when i do implementations or like custom projects that's one of the first things that i think about at the very beginning is what am i not only what am i solving but how how am i making the company better am i saving the company money or am i making the company money and at the end of the day that's what all companies look for in an employee whether it's servicenow or you know a janitor are you making the company money you're saving the company money that's that's that's the whole point yeah kevin likes numbers are important i mean i totally agree with what you guys are saying if you can put down like i built a solution that saves this team half an hour a day every day of the week and that each person on team is like you know say there's 10 people right like you can easily figure out what that value is you don't have to say like money you can just say i saved this team you know 25 hours a week yeah you could probably hire an intern at that rate regardless of where you are yeah because i don't i don't know what interns get paid specifically but you know what i'm saying like you can show that kind of value and even if it's not a thing that is measurable in that way like you said you can still like kind of show what the value was that you perceived that the work you did save well that service now model make the work work for you you know and that's that's that's what we're all about you know we're not not here to try to take away positions but at the same time we're trying to get people to focus on the more important stuff not the mundane tasks and if you can show that quantify that you're already 10 steps ahead of everyone else yep yep and and and then take that take that idea and apply it to your resume again right like i'm going to take this and pull it right back down like if you can make the font bigger do it if you can make the if you can make the words easier to read use a font that is standard across all i mean every word implementation right so you don't have to make someone install a font stupid provided in pdf so that it's exactly how you want it to be one can edit it because who knows am i am i ridiculous for having a page on my website for my resume i do as well somebody says hey i wanted to talk about this um what if what if you received a resume mark that had you know a one-pager fairly fairly concise and then after each section had a qr code for more scan here would you be okay with that yes well my my security policy mine kind of kicks in where i'm like what are you doing right so i probably going to read the url for the qr code first then it's going to go to your website and i'm going to go better say resume url like there better be a reason i'm going here qr code is a little overboard i think but yeah i mean i put links on my resume i mean i've got links as well and honestly one of the resumes that i read recently i think it was for our um uh what are they called not intern graduate right so australia post has a graduate program um we were offered a graduate here's the resume let's have a look and one of the things that i saw was a github link right i checked github and immediately first of all you know it was if you're if you're gonna put links on it better work because github is the first thing if it i'm gonna go check and make sure that that repo is still alive yeah i mean i i checked it it was it was there it wasn't particularly new but honestly you know what that told me is that this person is interested in technology and this person isn't just just doing whatever for a job you know it was for me kind of exciting because it was one of the first resumes that i'd seen with a github and i was like oh cool i've got to get up i would like it if people would look at my github to see the sort of stuff that i've been doing i'm ashamed i'm ashamed of my github i edit things directly on my github i think though it's actually a good a good thing that you guys brought up because um like one of the things that i kind of think about that's unrelated to the job itself but how much effort do you put into your resume to make it look good or your website to make it look good that you actually care enough about yourself and your role you know and how much effort like if if you can make a good looking resume then i'm not worried about you sending out technical documentation you know what i mean like it kind of fills in some of those links that i don't have to ask you about in an interview or i'm not looking for in a resume like can you do technical documentation or can you properly align a word document or make a powerpoint i can kind of see that you know yeah and and i mean i've had i've had people like i've interviewed people that had put their github on on their page or put it on their resume and i go to it and then i pick through it and then i have technical questions about what they did right like and i know that sounds terrible but like if you're going to put your github on there right you better be prepared right every repo every public repo everything better like whereas like hey everything on your resume is a conversation you haven't had with the interviewer yes that they can ask you about so if you don't want to answer questions about that thing don't say it yeah but it also makes the interview a little bit more personable you know you're not talking about what is a before business rule you know how you know why you use script includes it makes it a little bit more personable with that person and you know what they could because it's their stuff they can actually speak to it and feel comfortable about it they don't feel like it's an interrogation you know what i mean and and that's why i think it's it's a little it's like it's like there's a third category for github right like i there would be things where it's like hey there these are the repos i'm okay with you asking me questions about right right and these ones are the skeleton in the closet that i'm like i don't know i checked that in as like some code that i kept from like years ago for you know for some repo from somewhere like yeah you can delete or archive old repos so maybe that's something that you know if you are putting your github on your resume spend a bit of time go through and just tidy it up and you know pin the ones that you're particularly proud of and make your your home page look cool because that's another place like if you're going into more of a dev role um i think there's a way you can actually use like readme's on the home page of your github profile yeah there is you can make uh you can make a repo name of your username and then you add a readme.md file and that becomes the top part of your homepage on github if you want to check it out github.com i've got one there it's great i'm angry i'm angry because someone took my use my they took my username so i'm phoenixdev 1. i'm like oh oh yeah you know i kind of like i feel like i've established my brand enough so i'm like you know i bet i could get a lawyer they're not active they're pro i mean you could convince him to sell it to you yes let's say you know send him like 100 bucks like can i have that username please if if i had anything worthwhile on my github i would i wouldn't have a problem with it but i'm kind of fine that it's obscured just a little bit because there's no reason for anyone to go look on there but i bet a bunch of people are now which is the nature of the internet let me go you can always go to get lab the only reason why i use github the past couple weeks was because of jace so don't feel bad i can't wait to dig more into that project but my pdi has been down for like a week so i gotta wait until that comes out before i can do something edi's been down for a week okay so do you guys all right speaking of github and all of our projects and resumes and everything um should we should we unleash this on the world where we allow people into the stream is anybody doing you guys cool with that yeah that's great okay so we'll do a half an hour of q a i think this is perfect like we'll talk i don't know every time i set a format for something i totally end up stopped doing that um but i think we'll do a half hour q a and then we'll we'll open it up so here's what i'm gonna do i'm gonna push a button on my stream deck it's going to make an api request hopefully and then i'm going to do this hold on give me a minute i'm not quite the master at this yet if you would like to join the stream it is currently live you can hit phxdev dot me forward slash show and you will automatically you can click a little button at the bottom there you will automatically auto magically be forwarded to the correct stream let's see let's see who pops in here i wish i had the waiting from jeff i wonder if um if stream yard lets people connect via their phone i think it does which i think is pretty cool i've tried it i've tried to see if i could but um again if you if you're on the street or if you're if you're watching the stream now and you're interested in coming on which might not be a lot of people i don't know um you're more than welcome to use the link below phx dev dot me slash show uh and join us and and we'll we'll take your questions live or you can take them off the air if you'd like whatever whatever whatever floats your boat there chat just died like nobody's talking it's like earlier there was an i asked on youtube from that sweet poodle who said hey how do you deal with um resumes and ats's i don't know what that means i'm guessing it's like automatic like sorting things that get rid of resumes that don't meet the criteria and like that's a tough one right yeah are you talking about the auto formatting and stuff that yeah so i'm talking like i think some resume places they just like they cut you if you don't have like wow you know html or javascript or itil or whatever yeah and then you might need to know somebody there yeah but i would a long time ago when i worked at hospital one of the patients i had to bring from place to place was uh one of the things he told me was because he worked in i.t and i didn't he was we were making small talk he said it's not what you know it's who you and i've always lived by that sense that's still so true today it is it is and that's one of the things too like you know for like junior developers and things like i know i'm kind of going off the reservation of resumes here but for junior developers just get into the space just start talking to people because you know what you never know who you might run into and again it's like jay said it's it's who you know and you might run into someone who's looking for a role in some place and you know what maybe they're looking for a junior developer that i don't want i don't like the word groom but you know kind of mold you know and and build you know and and show them the ropes you know um and how things are done so i'm totally with you on that one jase yeah you know it's funny uh i was just telling my mentee this from the the dev mentee program like you know put your name in people's mouths right like post on linkedin keep keep people interested like be be available um speaking of being available i've heard people joining the stream now i'm so impressed joseph how you doing man i'm good man i'm good this is a this is a near and dear aspect very close to my heart so i'm glad y'all are doing this yeah absolutely yeah did you have anything specific you wanted to talk about are you just happy about us talking about that i i think the biggest thing yeah i've really hit on i came from a non-i.t background i was an aircraft mechanic so i knew for me like i had to prove how i got whatever experience i had and a lot of it was in my pdi what i did in 2019 was i went to all the knowledge labs and actually built everything out and then would go a little bit further and you know kind of push the envelope in my free time what what am i learning in my free time what search am i trying to get but then building it in my pdi so that when i got an interview it wasn't just like oh this guy you know can write a resume but what is he actually doing and i could bring my pdi up in the interview and say this is what i'm doing and i that also i mean opened me up to get really quizzed hard but i also knew like this is the opportunity and i have to be willing to answer anything but that's what landed me my first role because the hiring manager was like you just seem like a guy that just looking for an opportunity i said exactly cool you know that's awesome oh going mark no i was gonna say you know it's it's very brave right like to to to put to put the things that you said on your pdi right like you're talking about opening yourself up right that's that's huge and for for a lot of time for for people for you know first time experience right it's really hard like you've you've really got to know what you're talking about because someone could really go and pick pick you apart i mean i know there are some really hard questions that can be asked and for me i've i've been a consultant from the very beginning so i didn't work specifically for servicenow so i'm constantly interviewing and even now with having my own consulting firm is i have to interview constantly because every project's new so yourself yeah you always have to be willing to to step out your comfort zone and show how you serve and that's what i always tell everybody and that's what i tell transitioning service members because i've i've written about 1200 resumes at this point and it always comes back to you're telling a story and you're telling a story how you can serve the person that's hiring you yep exactly yeah and that's one that's one of the things too i think mark and jace you guys can attest to me with uh is and joseph you you hit on this push the envelope uh so like an example was and this is years years back before servicenow actually got in an echo there oh there's kevin up uh hey kevin um back in the day servicenow didn't really have didn't really do very much with language translation and it was a problem that needed to be solved and so you know what what i just hacked together google translate and the nav header and people loved it it wasn't a great solution it was an easy solution but you know what it solved a lot of people's problems and it put my name like mark said in people's mouths like oh well that's my bar oh wow like and so that's the thing is pushing that envelope hacking the platform making it making it do things that you wouldn't expect it to do you know and that's what really gets your name out there and you know get that attention well and and mike you know it's funny that you say that because that's how you and i met right like that was that was what we had bonded over yeah the mid servers and then and then now jace is going to go oh yeah the mid like it's been like years like people still talk about this crap i'm like come on guys like i'm not a one-trick pony i've got other things oh come on you know what's funny mike and i should probably share that title you know fedora gave me that title like mike's probably mr mid server just as much if not more than i am like come on we're we're you're you're mr mid server i'm mr mid server junior i'm the smaller version oh come on come on i'm not by height you're much taller than i am yeah they're good hey kevin are you cooking i cannot meet you i don't know my wife asks for a steak and i'm i'm cooking i'm putting a steak on and i've got bacon in the oven so yeah this is great he's a man that serves yeah you know she can't eat she can't eat the beef that has gra as a corn in it so she has to get the grass-fed beef so wow the good stuff very cool awesome i'm just glad to have you on the spoon got a little echo going but that's okay um yeah so uh while kevin's making steak for his wife we want kevin cook i haven't really eaten today i should probably get on that but um i wanted to sort of say um you know mike you're talking about um like hacking projects like people are sort of saying oh how do we get into the space like and and even throwing back to talk to people who are in the job like mike just recently you said i'm bored what's something you want to happen and everyone who work that you knew who works on servicenow was like oh here's something here's something here something perfect fodder for learning the platform doing it in your pdi and making a name for yourself right yeah and hopefully within a week or so we're gonna make make email great again guys it's gonna be cool it's coming i think some of the best for it i think some of the best advice i got from robert odor was go on the community and see what the trending questions are and then take that question and go try to fix it in your pdi that's advice he's ever given me yeah and that i mean that guy is kind of who i i grabbed onto and jace and and mark when i first came in because i said i need to see who's doing what what are they doing how are they doing it and i need to get my name out there so i had to go figure out ways like you said put your name in people's mouth and i did that through content but also constantly watching what the kind of the names in the space we're doing and a lot of everybody was in the community so i was like okay and there were times where i would go look at a question and try to solve it and was like nope can't but then i would ask the same question in the thread that everybody else was asking i was like okay and then i would try to build a little bit more so it's just the constant like you said hacking of growth but then being able to communicate that eloquently in a resume i mean in a in a resume but also an interview like it probably shows that you're a problem solver because that's what it really comes down to we're troubleshooters and we solve problems yeah unfortunately my most helpful my most helpful post is uh adding a url in field messages my most helpful post i don't know why it's a dom hack but everybody loves it do people love stop problems dom has dom hacks are terrible but you know yeah i think my most popular my most helpful post is requiring a comment on an approval inside on a rejected approval inside service portal so there's like an out of the box widget that when you hit approve or reject it goes and does it and i wrote a little piece of code that changed an out of the box widget pops a modal and says why are you rejecting this and it doesn't let you go until you've hit it and once a week every couple weeks i'll get helpful comments additional like it's still going and this is from 2016 2017 i did that in my first job that's crazy and that shows that the power of like evergreen content too i mean you post one thing and it continues to put your name out there you can't you can't put a thing on that and i think another thing from a mentor that i got was always be interviewing so always be interview ready and also be like prepared to bomb interviews sometimes like when i first started like again i didn't even know the language like how to communicate and the my first couple interviews i bombed them but i knew i needed to bomb them but i need to get the exposure to understand what the higher managers were going to ask me that i could prepare did you get feedback just just curious like yeah because i asked uh i asked at the end i said is there any are there any concerns that you have and they were saying you know we weren't i mean honestly your your javascript skills weren't really there i said okay perfect is there anything specifically that you think i should work on for other interviews and i was blessed to have people that said yeah man you know you need to know this thing like glide record is you know is the bread is the bread and butter you need to understand how to articulate that so that's my thing is like i went into that interviewing knowing like i'm probably not gonna get the role but i look at it as an opportunity because i get to even be in the room with somebody who can potentially ask me questions to prepare so i'm always i'm i'm still i've only been in the ecosystem for three years so i'm always willing to take interviews and ask questions because i'm always trying to grow so it's just that that desire to step out of your comfort zone and be willing to be grilled that that's what comes to it and random live streams yeah you know this is this is this is kind of like the interview format right where it's it's people watching i think everyone that was watching joined the stream so there's a problem but hey kevin you can always take notes in an interview like there's no reason not to take notes in an interview and those things are so valuable after the fact and the thing about it too is if somebody knows like if you go into the interview and you give it your best shot and they ask you a question and you can't answer it and you tell them hey i you know right now i can't answer that but i would love to follow back up with you and email with the answer and even even if they're like yeah whatever and you still do it at least it shows that you do have that hunger and that's the big and especially in the beginning for anybody who's who's watching where you're trying to break into space in my opinion that's the hardest thing to do because there's so much imposter syndrome that you feeling about can i even do this and you just got to be willing to hear no and get rejected but keep going back and again the thing about it those initial interviews like those people are now my mentors because they saw me back then trying everything i could to get a shot and now they're like i mean you're doing it you know and they're continually giving me advice on what to work on and things like that so don't don't hesitate to to try and attempt you know because you've got to start somewhere yeah and and to add to that with the imposter syndrome i can say that three years of my career i've copied and pasted everybody's code like the code is there you know and it took me a long time to actually understand what i was copying and pasting but you if you know servicenow is using it and it works well give it a shot and reapply it you know eventually your imposter syndrome will make you an expert you fake it i call it fake it till you make it eventually you fake it for so long you are an expert so don't don't let that get to you hey kevin hey kevin hey i would agree with that i feel like i'm definitely i feel that imposter syndrome is like i know what i'm doing but it's like just having the confidence to say that stop doubting yourself and know that you know what you're doing yeah yeah yeah it's like confidence yeah it's that confidence that you need you know that you're doing the right thing and don't be afraid to just answer a question with i'd google it like honestly you know how many of us the first thing oh i need to i don't know have an acl on a cmdb subclass that applies to everything below it it's like i don't know if that's how it works but i'm going to google it and find out in about five minutes because this question will have been answered before there's going to be a chuck to marcy post on community with this is exactly what you need to do you know i still have to rule foreign key loops like it's just i'm not you're not going to remember everything but as long as you know where to get that information that's all that matters and i think that that extends out to junior devs too where i think one of the biggest questions i like to ask in an interview to somebody interviewing is what happens if you can't solve a problem what's the process that you you go through in order to get get an answer because that tells you a lot about someone's again their their their humbleness their ability to ask for help especially if you're junior because we're we're hiring you knowing you're going to need to be groomed and our goal is to get you aligned with somebody who can teach you the best practices so if you're able to articulate if i run into a problem first thing i do you know i'll look on the community i'll look at google and then i will come to that senior dev and say this is everything that i've done these are all the the troubleshooting steps that i took but i just can't figure out the next thing and a lot of times what happens is that senior devil said hey man you missed just one thing right here but that proves to that senior dev that this guy or woman is willing to put forth the effort but also be humble enough to ask for help and and once i was once i was comfortable enough to do that that's where i found senior devs that really poured into me um and gave me opportunity and i i want to point out like um i worked for an organization so tv consulting right um we had we had we called it the tenants of operation right so it was like our dna it was it was what we went to work with every day and and felt like hey what was you know i don't know how do you define our our company as a whole right and it's one of the things that we had always said one of the rules was i don't know is an acceptable answer right 100 of the time every time i don't know is an acceptable answer but 24 hours later there had better be a follow-up communication right about what you learned and why you either you know here's your opinion now or here's here's an addendum to what you were saying like it's it's it's that important right you say i don't know but the the action is following up it's it's pushing forward and making sure you learn something from it and again interviews like i think we'll have a full episode on interviews at some point right like that's that's the key it's showing off that you know that you can you can go and learn right i learn to learn right that's what i feel like college is about learning to learn you're being taught to learn so that when you go off into the world you know bright-eyed and bushy-tailed you you fall down you get back up and you make things happen that's that's that's the whole problem yeah that's the thing is how do you think all best practice guys were written exactly bailly yeah they were handed to us from the heavens [Laughter] and i think that goes back to show especially on the consulting side you're gonna have a client i guarantee you in the middle of a call with everybody on the call ask you a question and you don't know the answer to and how you handle that is the same way you will handle any issue that you find and you're on your own where it's just you heads down developing how are you going to go about it and there's been plenty of times where i'm i'm asked a question and i will have to say let me circle back with you but you always circle back like that's always number one you come back to the table with some kind of information yep and you put your name back in their mouths right like it's like oh man that guy followed up or that person followed up right and now i've got an email with that like there and they showed that initiative like that's huge that's massive massive massive in the in when you go to interview i i don't know if people like who's taking notes like if like if you follow up find an excuse to follow up like find an excuse like find a reason to you know thank you for interviewing me this what i'm looking forward to the second interview like pump yourself up pump anybody up else up right like like oh this was so great i'm so glad i connected with you you're such a great person right like it's not gonna cost you any money to do that right yeah you can only help yourself and that interview interviewing is a skill but that post follow-up is something that so many people don't value but i guarantee you will give you an advantage because nobody does it thank you is free thank you is free all day long thank you even if you don't get the role like thank them for their time it's the littlest thing it's a little thing don't know who you're going to interview with in 10 years yes you never know and they might refer you to somebody with a junior with a junior role like this guy hey you know is it good for us but he's a good fit for you right um is um like connecting to with someone on linkedin after an interview weird or okay mandatory yeah connect with them if you get an interview it'll also oftentimes have the person's name in there look them up beforehand you know they can look it up they can research them and research maybe what they're doing i always always look up research the actual employer for who i'm talking to first so so one thing you toasted was uh um you know uh if someone asks you a question you know and you don't know how do you how do you handle that so this is one of the things that i ask on every interview how do you say no like how do you tell a client no or how do you tell you're you're i don't want to say your boss yeah exactly the business side the any any other person that you might have to go toe-to-toe with how do you say no i'm not gonna do that correct that and that's a huge thing that's a huge if you can tell me how you say no and you and you explain it well you're all it's already a win in my book because the way that i see it i think i think steve jobs said this you can say no i thought i'm if i say no i'm saying no to that one specific thing but you can change it and i might say yes to it you know um so i think that's a very key thing that you're not going to put on a resume but it's very key when i interview people i ask them that how do you know i wish my kids would learn that and i think there's something too there's a book called the third door and this is something i tell a lot of transition service members like i take the third door in everything i do because i don't have a degree i didn't have the years of experience so i had to figure out a way that worked best for me and that's my people skills so i would send the connection requests i would network my face off because i knew that i had to do whatever it took to get that interview and sometimes it was somebody just referring me like this guy is he's just he i mean he's hit me up so many times asking how he can serve anything he can do just give the guy a shot and then sometimes you just got to leave yourself open for like opportunity like that and be willing to say so my third door i always say is like there's a nightclub there's the front door where everybody goes in there's a side door all the famous people in the third door you have to climb up the dumpster and go through the back window that's how i've done everything because i had to look at the situation uniquely to me and be willing to do all the extra work that it took to get here what you lack in technical ability you can make up for in charm and it's true it's 100 true and and it doesn't have to be charm it could just be persistence you know whatever you want to call it right it's that tenacity of just coming at that problem and never stopping and just being like i've gotten i mean my first job in tech that's the same way i got it right i kept badgering a friend of mine i'm like what are you doing how are you doing it have you thought about this he's like dude you cut hair for a living i'm like yeah i know but i want to do what you're doing right and over and over and over and over until finally he was like just apply and i probably wouldn't have gotten that job honestly honestly if he hadn't been like he won't stop talking to me like he just won't stop like never ends so i mean to make him shut up do whatever you have to do to get in the nightclub i mean because for me i knew i just needed to get in the room and get around people that are doing it every day and then it's like you start taking on so much of it because you're hearing it every day yeah and i remember like the first the first in 2019 when i took my job with icm i just took notes all day long like people would we have a stand-up call and people would be talking about what they did and i had no idea what anybody was talking about but in my free time i would research and then ask follow-up questions the next day like hey so i was researching and found out this and this and this and this and everybody on the call like the senior dev she i mean she poured into me she was like the fact that you're just willing to always ask questions and try to learn is why you're still here yeah that that was my favorite part about in-person knowledge that was my my favorite part because i just out of nowhere having a drink you know or whatever with these big wigs you know um senior directors of marketing at servicenow like i never thought i'd even get face to face with them but here i am having drinks with them and we're joking around talking about scarves now and things like that you know i i i miss those days yeah all right i this has been great guys i think this is amazing amazing amazing time i mean this was a lot of fun i'm no joke um i'm gonna i'm gonna give everybody a chance to to to plug what you're selling or uh you know a blog a linkedin post something um but i'll start i'll start at the top let's go with jace first here we go jace all right guys in under five minutes you'll know everything there is to know about servicenow every week just check it out at news.js.pro or look me up on linkedin or youtube wherever awesome joseph you're next uh my only plug is if you need resume help um feel free to reach out i'm here to help i've been through the struggles myself and i feel like i've gone through them so i can help other people so if you have questions feel free to reach out anytime on linkedin email anything like that whatever works best for you awesome mike you're next uh yeah um thanks to jason and giving me a coding challenge um uh i've got a github repo um for mjml which is uh making it responsive emails look pretty in service now um and uh also a couple of other you know uh repos like my google translate that's like five years old but uh go check it out uh my github name is mbar uh snc so go check it out awesome yeah uh please please for free uh ping it in chat and then obviously there will be a log of this um kevin hi everyone um i don't have anything to say i'm cooking steak so i'm really off the cuff i'm not sure what to say i'll come back i'll come back and we'll revisit this next the interviewing one you got it you got it and upside down andrew yeah cool um i'm all over the internet you know andrew aubry door andrew dot albrecht i think is my um website i don't know if you subscribe to my youtube maybe i'll make more videos we'll put it that way all right i do want to cover knowledge 22 in sydney where i'm really excited to go and i want to try maybe do youtube shorts of around the show floor and stuff so if you are keen for that follow like subscribe smash the like button whatever um you know all of that crap oops yeah yeah absolutely awesome well um thank you so much to my guests uh thank you everybody that came on uh chat thank you so much for for being here with us um i i absolutely love this format i think this is gonna work very well moving forward i hope you do i'm gonna close the close the window to the stream now um hopefully that api call works too um [Laughter] if you've been there you know what i mean all right guys uh thank you so much again for coming on um we'll see everybody again next week we're gonna do fridays at 5 30 pm pst uh pdt i don't know pacific pacific time in in the pacific area um every friday 5 30 check us out thank you very much all right thanks mark bye everybody see ya