press record my name is charles rayburn i am a customer success advocate here at servicenow i'm also to a team lead for uh the medsled region um we started these office hours like i said earlier as a pilot type of program it's grown tremendously to be a quarterly initiative here thanks to the support and the feedback from you as customers the goal of these office hours is to invite a senior subject matter expert based upon topics you've talked with us uh with either myself or your csa in either a monthly check-in or quarterly success review or in just casual conversations via email or or on phone um just to kind of get a good pulse of what's going on in all of your world so these topics don't randomly show up they're actually coming from you as voice of the customer the goal is for the first 15 to 20 minutes have a senior subject matter expert talk about the particular topic in the areas that you guys have mentioned you wanted to hear about that topic and the remaining 40 minutes is really open dialogue where you can ask questions of um or to the senior subject matter expert or you can also to talk about some of the use cases that you're either undergoing today in the topic or you're looking to undergo and then kind of get some feedback from other customers which are also two online as well as a senior subject matter expert so it's meant to last about an hour um and then afterwards definitely i would love to send you guys a survey of which you guys can come out and provide some feedback back to us so that we can figure out what are some other topics that we need to continue forward uh with us before around these office hours so today we're going to talk about application portfolio management the best practices around that particular product first year possible setup tips and tricks things like that our senior subject matter expert is albert su so i'll let him introduce you himself and then he will start going through a powerpoint presentation to start talking about that in more depth albert great thanks thanks charles and by all means please call me out whenever people call me albert i feel like i'm in trouble so um i've been in service i've been in servicenow for about six years now i'm still a veteran here i've had many different technology roles within servicenow across our i.t business management i.t operations management and i.t service management products but before that i've been with number of different technology companies as a solution architect for technology business management service asset config management and software development um based in toronto canada and i'm really pleased to be talking about my favorite subject which is how to help customers manage their digital products or business applications within the enterprise um so a quick um thing about why business applications are so important and actually before i do that too i i know my uh the product owner ammar condopali is also on the call i'll let amara introduce himself as well just so that you know that he's there he's the instrument he's the driver behind all the functionality i'm going to share with you as the product owner for application portfolio management hey all thanks al uh i'm amar i'm the inbound product manager for apm i've been with servicenow for about three and a half years and for about and the last three and a half years i've been doing application portfolio management yeah so inbound meaning i work with all the engineering uh design quality quality and program management teams to deliver the product that's about me great and and amara has been instrumental he's been with the apm since the very beginning if you're familiar with servicenow releases istanbul jakarta kingston those were our ijk releases so we we first introduced apm and our istanbul release and ammar has been part of that since the very beginning um so i just want to make sure that you all knew that he was on the call and he'll also help with answering some questions if we come to that um so back to the topic of the day which is apm application portfolio management i wanted to start off by explaining why business applications and how we manage them are so strategic to it um the reason is because business applications are very tangible to the business what i mean by that is that there's a lot of moving parts technologies infrastructure software hardware you think about platforms is microservices apis the more detailed you get the more complex it becomes for business people to really understand what's the value of our technology investments if we're trying to upgrade a system well why is that important and that's why most business people understand technology from the concept of how it's being used and that's the business applications so how we drive investment is very important within the servicenow platform because it workflows really manage the business of i.t of how it's delivering outcomes um that being said apm was built to provide these key core goals to provide visibility to your application inventory to rationalize or make decisions on your business applications and whether we should invest sustain or replace them provide context business context of what capabilities and business values does each business application provide and also from a bottoms-up perspective helps you understand that technology the software and hardware components and the information that's used by those applications to help support technology risk management and compliance audits so we're really trying to give you full visibility and inventory on the servicenow platform and there are many tools on the market that do that but none of them do it in the way we do in terms of being an integrated platform approach to how you manage your application inventory decision making around applications getting more more complex as businesses grow especially in healthcare you acquire new healthcare providers or clinics and divisions you add applications to your inventory i recently cleaned out my parents garage i wouldn't couldn't believe how much after 40 years they've collected you know multiple hammers tools etc well it mimics the data center in many environments where you start to acquire a lot of technologies and you even stop understanding what those applications actually do for your business so there's really a high cost and run the business in health care based on a lot of duplication of applications that are out there because of that complexity there's poor business alignment we're not sure exactly what to invest in what systems are important to upgrade or to keep current and there's no accurate road map of how to manage those and with all this complexity with all the technology and the different life cycle of both hardware and software when i say life cycles you think general availability end of support end of life these have impacts to our healthcare customers especially if we're trying to protect you know protected health information you know having a system that's not patched or not up to date is going to have high degrees of risk to our healthcare business so that's where apm really was built to manage applications from four different lenses you get the aspect of business capability understanding you know from a care provider perspective what applications provide ambulatory care process support or things like that or or clinical support etc that's what we mean by business capability that we try to align to we want to be able to understand who owns specific applications what's the cost performance and risk of those how do we make investment system or dispositions on those applications or decisions on those applications we need to manage the technology life cycles like i meant in terms of technology risk management and finally information you know from hipaa and hl7 or understanding different protected health information that's been running on our applications it's very important to get visibility to what what those are running so these are the four lenses that we like to say we manage uh the application inventory through and that brings us to our capabilities here so as i mentioned those four lenses translate into different ways we manage a portfolio so the application portfolio is that first one where we can do app rationalization understanding what the inventory is we have 17 out of the box parameters or indicators allow you to assess the cost performance and risk of your applications we can maintain the accuracy of those through data certification and desired state audits so you can understand and be notified if certain applications don't meet an architecture standard the business portfolio we have we can import a capability hierarchy you know ap qc american productivity and quality center might be example they provide a health care provider business capability or process classification framework you can import that into servicenow apm and then align all your business applications against that you can also align them against your business units your departments your healthcare different providers inside your organizations there's different ways to categorize your applications and provide that business portfolio context i talked about technology risk management that's the third pillar here where we can start to say you know based on the versions of software and hardware and this is where we use an integration with our cmdb service mapping discovery and software asset management and hardware asset management to bring in the life cycle dates and and life cycles of your different technologies and give you visibility to that and then finally information portfolio you can integrate this with your data architectures your data governance solutions to bring in what information objects you manage in your in your organization and then identify which applications use that this will accelerate your your audits and or or understand the controls or remediation tasks you need to do against your business applications now a lot of tools on the market do provide these four pillars but what they require you to do is is to integrate with some other uh way to generate benefit realization or activities or actions so servicenow apm is integrated with our rit business management suite to help you create programs goals projects or benefit realizations so that you can actually take action on any decisions you make within apm so does that give everyone a good exam overview of what apm is and what we're trying to do with it any questions so far okay so when we understand what an application is made up of within service now it's important to talk about something called the common service data model now when you're modeling technologies there's a lot like i said there's a lot of moving parts think about this bottom level picture here and charles i should have as are my slides coming through in the screens etc they sure are okay good i was hoping it wasn't talking to error there um but anyway so you can see about a technology stack you've got software hardware that's all managed well that's grouped together in terms of an instance of a business application i might have a prod dev or test environment and then our application inventory is really that top level so what the csdm helps us describe is the different context of how we manage technology there's a design perspective that lies in the enterprise architectures so you think about your enterprise architects within your within your organizations they really understand the strategies of the business the capabilities that each healthcare provider is trying to meet and align the technologies or the business applications that provide those capabilities that's the top-level design you have operations teams though the support groups that need to manage the technologies that are underneath it manage them as what we call technical service offerings or technical services that's the operational context and then finally how we deliver that through it the concept of business services so i actually have a good example here to walk you through how we would model that i know not all of you use epic but epic is a common uh healthcare application that i've heard in the market you know meditek might be another or cerner not to discount those tools but i'm using epic as an example an epic is actually more what we call a platform host it actually has multiple applications like my chart clinicals and telehealth and so you've got a business application might be in your inventory called epic but also breaks down to multiple platform applications that we also want to manage so hopefully this makes sense um you have a business owner or an application owner they understand the business context what does my chart and clinicals really provide from a business service perspective or business capability that's what the business app the application owner uh really is the steward of that application record but if you think about epic it's actually deployed in probably multiple environments and a good example i'd like to use is dev and prod you probably have a dev epic environment where you do all your configurations before you release it into your prod the dev instance is probably n minus the current version and the prod is maybe n minus one um or the previous version and you probably have a standard to run that well every business application has multiple instances or application services and that's what's represented in this model here if you didn't know irrit operations management product helps you to populate application services in different ways we can do something called service mapping that allows you to take the discovery or the infrastructure you have your dev your your epic web your epic emr server in your oracle 12g database to discover that and map out the relationships between those application services that's called service mapping but we can also do it in two other ways we can do through tag based services through cloud integration or we could do manual or query based uh application service maps as well so this is how your technology or infrastructure really starts to connect to your application inventory and i won't go into more detail but as i build this out you'll see the other aspects of the common service data model we can start to manage technical service offerings for example i might be the owner of oracle database service offerings which is part of a broader database services where it includes db2 mysql or sql server oracle might be that one horizontal stream of technical services where we manage oracle and then you've got the walk side or the run side where we're starting to model our business services so for it service management i may have certain service requests or incident problems and change i want to track that this business service offering so i can see that ambulatory care uses the broad environment of epic but it is more specifically might use the specific clinicals application than that ambulatory care etc so this is the relationship of how your business service offerings might tie to your infrastructure and then finally the run side or the fly is using more of apm where we can understand the business capability of patient discharge well patient discharge uses telehealth and it captures you know and then my chart might contain the patient's social security number and patient health records so you can see how business capabilities and information objects are now tied to the common service data model i'll pause there for any quick questions okay so now let's talk about how we can mature you from a best practice perspective to using application portfolio management so this three level hierarch three-level stage of this is my own crawl walk run this is different from the crawl walk run of the common service data model the common service data model was built to help customers use our cmdb to model a service and how do you do end-to-end service reporting and protect yourself from technical debt the product this maturity model for apm this is a crawl walk run with which helps you to use apm to its fullest or to get value and you'll see the very first level one does mimic the csdm in terms of getting your application inventory in there as a first step identifying ownership though is what we promote and then finally extending it to understand what business capabilities so this is our this is what we recommend is their first level of maturity with application portfolio management as you get started you can then grow onto that and add you know measurement of your applications you can start to do some strategic planning with your application roadmaps or you can start managing technology life cycles by uh going from level one to level two in any of these three you can start to get more value or you could take tackle it from a governance risk in compliance where i want to inventory my protected health information on my business applications and start prioritizing my investments that way again any of these can help you with your next level two journey and as you continue going through you can do more complicated uh or complex activities such as tco calculations you can do proactive technology risk management or business capability planning where you're starting to assess your capabilities and drive new goals programs or demands against your capability planning so hopefully you can see you can go from inventory to basic application rationalization to advanced continuous application rationalization in each of these three levels and by the way um i'm sure charles will send out these slides afterwards so if you if i often get questions around getting access to these so let's talk about a maturity model as well what we call the fight the apm fitness journey in terms of and i'll show you and try to demonstrate capabilities that you have as you start your journey so we application portfolio management from an i.t business management perspective really helps you align your your your digital solutions or applications and services against the business goals of the organization so it's really that alignment is what we're trying to drive toward so the first these are the five levels that we have this is a more detailed maturity model of how you can do application portfolio management and it can it's generic to any different tool uh we created this fitness journey so that you as an organization it didn't matter whether using servicenow apm or other tools at least it helps you align how you can start to proactively manage your application inventory through using this fitness journey that level one is this what we call basic application inventory so you'll notice the characteristics people are manually tracking their inventory there's an absence of formal management maybe a lack of faith by the business and it users and what really what is important for us to manage so those are might be your level one characteristics that you might want to measure yourself against well the first uh the first recommendation we have is to start with your basic application inventory so what does that look like on the platform i'm going to go into my application list here and what you want to start to do is you know many customers might have it on a spreadsheet today or some external database that's outside of servicenow the first step is to get your application inventory into service now and so i can start to categorize them or identify who the owner is or start to capture different attributes around the business application so if i look at sap ariba as example you'll see all the different metadata field fields that we capture here is it completely off the shelf homegrown what technology stack does it run etc and we can start to look at dependencies to infrastructure as well by by manually populating that information so this is kind of a level one um view of of how to get your inventory into service now and we actually have a guided setup that we revamped in our orlando release so again if you're not familiar why i'm saying city names you've got um new york orlando paris though we would name our releases by cities alphabetically so in our orlando release we updated our guided setup so we made it a line to our different pillars that you see here application business technology and information and you can see here as part of onboarding your applications we have a step-by-step walkthrough of how to set up your application categories your families how to build import your business applications how to start creating ci relationships and how to create application assessments so you'll see this guided setup is very much built into our application i want to also add that you've got a lot of training material available to you as well through now learning we've released a lot of free um self-paced training that you can take in terms of how to onboard application portfolio management and aligns very much to our maturity model and it itbm fitness journeys okay so that's level one level two now you're getting a better understanding of your inventory but now you're going to get more i.t focused understanding meaning we want to understand the operational context the application services that are on there so that's where you start to build out your relationships so here you might take a business application understand the instances or application service and then start to align your infrastructure that's that's part of it or you might start to have a higher level granularity into the dependencies you might have so what does that look like let's go into our application list again so we start from level one importing our business applications and as you mentioned here you have this attendance and payroll management you can now start this is again a different view that you have more detailed view of your business application and what you're going to start doing now is aligning your infrastructure dependencies so in this case i've got information objects i might have aligned here but also the instances or application services so i'm just going to circle those two there's three instances here and if i go up a couple levels you'll start to see the infrastructure that's tied to them okay so now you can see for this particular production application service you now have the infrastructure so level two is about aligning more of your infrastructure against your business applications so level one just getting your inventory in there level two starting to add your application services and your infrastructure we'll go to level three now this is where we wanna align applications of the business and this is through the capability hierarchy so what i mean by that is we want to start aligning these business capabilities to the business application so we're going to start creating those relationship upstream and how is that used is using what we call the business capability hierarchy so i'm going to go into that ui let's go back here so under business architecture you're going to import your business capability hierarchy or process classification framework and what that looks like is as i bring in you'll notice these multiple layers here each of these represents a business capability down to a process group down to a process down to an activity so you can import any level of hierarchy this is one for manufacturing but as i mentioned apqc has one for healthcare or you might adopt other process classification frameworks or our business capabilities aligned to health care providing health care services um one supporting function for example human capital management uh getting paid is very important a lot of organizations we need to pay our doctors our nurses our health care providers etc so administering payroll is very important so you'll see under this capability i i can start to manage the capabilities based on people process and technology but when it comes to apm what we want to do is align which business applications manage that administer payroll and so that's where you see back in this dependency view as i zoom in here attendance and payroll management provides the administered capab administer payroll capability here so that's part of your level three maturity going to level four now we're starting to make decisions and start to manage our applications by portfolios and by projects or investments and that really lies into road mapping and rationalization so if you didn't know before in in let's just take our capability map i can actually create a demand or a program or our goal to actually take action so i can actually say i want to migrate an application or align to a technolon architecture standard another thing i might want to do is create a demand from our technology risk management i'm going to go on the right hand side here as you go into technology portfolio you can see i might have the business applications and again avid employee engagement system it has an apac in asia pack and an emea ins or a usa instance these are the application services and now you can see the software and hardware models and you'll notice here i'm at high risk for oracle db server 11g so what this means is that we passed a lot about two years ago the end of support date for this particular database platform so what i might want to do is now create a new uh project or demand to actually remediate that so i might want to upgrade my platform and create a demand here okay so that's what we mean by taking creating opportunities and solutions or actions on your decisions if i drill into this avid employee engagement system again you see the business application record here i can go and look at the application roadmap to understand what investment decisions i'm making so you can see here i have one investment of demand oh actually you know what let me go to a different business application just so i can show you a more complete view here let's go to avid apologize for jumping around here i want to give you one that had more uh visuals to look at so here we've got six investments four projects and two demands and you can see them listed here and i can scroll through and see any type of metadata around those projects or demands i can start to group them by strategy for example so i want to see for attendance payroll management i have six i have four different strategies in line two and within those i can see the actual projects i can now see a timeline view of that as well so i can see for this attendance and payroll management application i have an hr integration work day i'm working on and leave management in hr and i could drill down to see exactly which stage key milestones or dates i have so that's level four of uh the fitness model the last level now is complete automation in terms of technology risk management so here's where we start to use the technology pro portfolio management and i showed you that before where we can start to manage hardware and software life cycles and start to take action so that's a level five maturity where you can now start to see integrations with your software asset management or hardware asset management products and using them for protecting your organization from technical debt or currency all right so i covered quite a bit and i tried to get through that quickly so we could get to questions but hopefully that gives you a flavor for what apm is what we built apm to do as well as a maturity model in terms of how you can start to use it from a best practice perspective all right perfect well thank you al that was a really really great presentation i wanted to now open up the floor for our customers and those on the line who may be even from servicenow you guys can all unmute yourselves and then any questions that you have about the powerpoint presentation any topics that al had just covered which you'd like to start with who wants to be the first to ask the question i have a question on on the business capability model um i noticed that uh you align it to the lowest level of uh i guess lowest uh business capability level um but it doesn't aggregate up to that first level is that best practice meaning i would expect if you have a couple of them within that let's say the first uh capability that you showed there's two or three apps that have a lower level than that first level it doesn't aggregate up to three it only aggregates up uh oh no you can you can align it to any level in the hierarchy map right but by saying the count is is it doesn't equate right so if you go to the first one and at the very top there's one that's uh indicated as being at that level but you might have additional ones that are um allocated to those lower granular levels that is correct this indicator rolls up to only that layer um we changed the icons in paris by the way but we also have this indirect applications so if i want to see all the applications underneath it you can do it in whatever level okay thank you great thanks man for that um next question hey this is what i have go ahead this this is diane cochtal from wellstar so um i'm i'm thinking back to the epic um like the business capability which is um so the business um i guess you called it some kind of yeah host there you go um so that epic was the application right and that application was made up of many pieces and parts i mean shoot we could have put service now in that and i'll do all the little service now modules too right um so when we are getting to the point i'm thinking like back to maybe level three i mean i i would say we're probably at level one um but like around level three when you can start showing the connections of the services right how can you how could i say well i want to look at um the port uh the epic application and see how it aligns to my strategic themes and and i'll give you an example um you know a lot of corporations well star one of them have have um have a strategic you know maybe 10-year roadmap of things that you want to include as far as a portfolio is concerned so so um provide um patient care you know provide the best patient care possible right so that would be um a portfolio a portfolio and from that portfolio it would have not only multiple projects associated with that but those projects would be associated with applications so one of the questions is if i have a portfolio that's not necessarily directed at the business application but rather a strategic theme or a strategic goal that you know ideally what we're saying is here's here's the goal of the company and all projects in all capital and all work should be focused on making that strategic goal happen so you could create a portfolio around the pieces and parts that match to that goal right and then show an overall effect of how the corporation is moving moving their their work efforts to that goal yeah so i'm trying to see how that would work because you were showing it based on like a functionality like develop the products right yeah yeah so that's a great question so we do have plan we have released some um content or capabilities to support strategy planning um so we go one one part of apm is our business planning aspect where we can start to create enterprise strategies and business unit strategies and you can start to align your goals uh goals and programs can be made up that you can have a relationship between projects to those goals um and in programs and so that's the end end like you've got a strategy that has a goal that has a set of projects and demands that are part of it that's the relationship and then yes yes and is that part of this or is that coming out in paris i know so we there's very limited functionality that we have that we introduced actually is uh amara if you can help me out i think it was back in the kingston mid london kingston yeah we added enterprise strategies and business unit strategies as entities but we are planning uh now through the store releases uh we have we introduced something called ppm um strategic reporting and amara is actually another product he's working on his um objectives and key results or okrs so that's another thing we're starting to plan for um um and i don't know mar do you think you can comment a little bit on yeah yeah what we have seen is many customers using a new framework which is in the market called as okr framework which they are using to define objectives at any level for a program project business unit department and what are the key results key results are like the different kpis or metrics that you want to track for that objective right so we are now designing an okr module and then that will be integrated into this whole business planning module okay okay so um i can't i don't have anything to show you for that now but just that i mean keep in mind yes that is something we want to help our customers do is do more tracking not to just projects but to products or strategies or key outcomes that you want to deliver great that's great thank you perfect well thank you for that um next question brad long go ahead how are you all doing today hey you had made mention you had made mention um on i don't know it's probably your second or third slide when you had like application portfolio business portfolio then business portfolio you had mentioned something uh like pcq related to health yeah apqc american productivity and quality center yeah right so what and you said you made a comment about that being able to be imported and i was wondering are there any other types of things like for example um a lot of the stuff that we do at the state of illinois goes across you know many many different business capabilities so like anything from like the the fiat business reference model or anything like that that would bring those type of categorization categorization in or okay is there anything that's a hierarchy yeah so let's just clarify some of that so in our guided setup you'll notice that we reference the apqc um a lot of um organizations do adopt that and you you'll see a link here where we actually have a blog article that talks about how to do business capability planning so um i can probably send out let me copy this link into the chat actually so people who are interested in that article and we i'm sure charles we can get these to you as well um so here's the article and you'll notice that what we have is a links to apqc and why i mentioned is because ap qc does have a healthcar care provider process classification framework now again you can i've had customers ask me can we import business architecture guild uh business capability hierarchies or other ones into here absolutely we made it generically to support any level of hierarchies up to six levels is what we first uh you probably don't want to go more than four as apqc does because there is some um you know there is a best practice around the number of players you want to manage a taxonomy but uh that definitely can import anything that's up to six levels of capabilities uh into apm and start to manage your your your capability hierarchies that way excellent thank you very much great um thank you for that um question there brad jim tyler did you have a question you could go ahead and make yourself okay um i think you'd mention within application portfolio that there are 17 out of the box parameters for assessing app performance and could you just so in addition to the 17 i'm assuming we we could add our own absolutely so i'll talk a little about about that so we have these uh application assessments that are here and basically you can create surveys you can have all right let me go into the indicators actually themselves i like to show it this way source okay so there's four different types of indicators you can create uh as actually there's one that's uh added as a demo so it's 18 here but there's actually 17 and you can see there are different types so the first one is assessment so this is using our same if you if you use servicenow for a while we we use surveys and assessments for example a feedback someone initiates a request in servicenow gets it fulfilled we'll send them an assessment at the end to say hey how did we do are you happy sad etc um so we we use the surveys or assessments as one mechanism to calculate uh capture more subjective indicators or assessments so that's you know customer satisfaction functional fit business value you would create questionnaires or surveys to actually capture this information and then we translate into an assessment the second was a query so you can query any table in the servicenow platform to make an indicator of that's the second type of uh type indicator we have the third is using out of the box performance analytics indicators so there's with any um servicenow application there's certain performance analytics indicators that are created in this case we're showing you number of changes open against the business application number of incidents these are pa indicators that's the third type and the fourth is custom scripts so any other ones that you want to create a good example is this application instance instant incident account so what is that type of script um what it does is it goes through and it creates uh it queries for example i might have a prod dev and the test environment of an application service and i might have five incidents in prod two and dev and three in qa well what we do with that is we roll those up as 10 so that you can see for business application it's actually the aggregate of all of those and that's done through this application instant instance incident count script so i'll just drill into there so you can see so you have all these four different ways to create your own indicators that you have in paris we actually added something called multi-level indicators which we're really excited about what allows you to do is is aggregate different indicators into one as well so of any of the ones that you saw listed here let's say total change hours plus usage plus i don't know facilities cost you could do three of those to create a stability metric uh as one aggregated application assessment and and can you do things like waiting as well uh yes each of these are weighted we try to normalize the score to between one and ten so that way you can have a more objective numeric number for all okay great thank you all right we have a couple more minutes here have time for about probably two more questions any other questions that uh anyone has from the group how many of you are leveraging apm today oh benjamin yep any others what would you say l would be some of the the the top tips then for someone who's looking to leverage apm um to kind of get them started if you will are there key areas that they need to focus on areas that uh that may help them out within like learning about what's coming up in paris things like that to help get them started um well there is the community site that we have a lot of uh content that we publish such such as the business capability planning and how to do that we have other articles around inventory best practices so let me just bring that up here okay so this is inventory best practices some tips and tricks on not tips and tricks but more just guidance from a process perspective of how to manage your application inventory and take advantage of certain features um i direct people there and then are now learning as well um if you go to now learning and and create a community uh id on that you can have access to a lot of training material what i would highly recommend is learning about our common service data model that's a free self-based training that you can understand the common service data model uh but if you go into it business management and you'll see a number of uh training self-based training for free on apm that you can you can have access to okay and there are they are by release as well perfect i appreciate you thank you so much for that any other questions from the field that's out there we have probably about five more minutes left now you could tell it's a good friday i think that that's that's that screen you just showed the common data service model of the 2.0 i think this is going to be one of those that everyone's looking forward to and seeing the powerpoint deck so i'll definitely be sharing this once i receive it from al to all of you um on the bridge and also too i'll be providing the recording of this office hour so you guys can share it within your own organizations so that for those who were unable to attend because there was a couple that mentioned to me that they were unable to attend um we'll get that over to you guys as well are there any other questions that you guys may have at this time diane yeah just one other question so um and just kind of looking at this the for business services um i know you made a comment about four to you know no more than four levels using the apqc but um are you talking about four levels meaning you start off with a business service and then um you add four levels or are we talking about the four levels meaning business capability business application business service and application services i just wanted to make sure i understood when you said the four levels what what are we really yeah correct in any taxonomy general in any um actually in our inventory uh best practice that i showed earlier here um we do tell you that you know keep the inventory as flat as possible there there's an aspect of managing hierarchies that you don't once you get to too many layers it becomes very difficult to manage when i was talking about the capability hierarchies it was just the four levels in with just this part here um for service management taxonomies that that i would probably want to point you to our itsm uh product success teams or uh service service portfolio management uh product manager in terms of what they're seeing and how you should manage your business services but that's different from what i was talking about and then the different layers as well that we might have gotten into is the cstm you've got the business application the application services and then the application software that's also kind of a context of hierarchies or layers that you might have but that's more from a a csdm kind of layers yes that does thank you very much so that brings up another good point too we are working to do an office hour on cstm later in i think it's slated for october because our schedule got booked up through september we're going to try to have a good hour and maybe um it might need to have a second office hour on it given that seems to be a very hot topic lately so we'll have a good session with that and we're going to be inviting for those who have met him during knowledge scott lamb he was the one who did a lot of those uh presentations over the csm he's a very knowledgeable resource for that so we're going to have that later on in the year as well awesome well are there any other questions if not um i just wanted to thank you all for attending the southwest hour today thank you al as always very very great conversation and powerpoint presentation he'll be sharing that with me and also too if you could send me just that other link that you just showed a minute ago on the community about kind of best practice stuff um i can share that with everyone on this call as well as those who did not attend thank you all so much take the time when i send over the information and the recording uh to fill out that survey for us and then we'll keep going with additional topics thank you guys so much and have a great friday thanks charles thanks thank you thanks guys